I had a nice little visit by the cops...

[angelratgirl]

okay, this has gotten a little off topic but i need to respond.

breasts mean little more than "lunch" to an infant.
it isn't until puberty (or public school) that kids begin to "realize" what else they are there for.  the hormones that trigger that kind of thought just aren't there yet when the kid is 3.

however, i do agree that children need to be not breastfeeding for years.  it actually makes the kid more dependant on mom.  and don't tell me that that is balogna... i am living proof. but i really just hate even thinking about it.  thank you, brain, for blocking any possible memory of that time.

[JohariZ]

I don't really ever remember my paretns spanking us. But they told me that they did, when we were younger. But I honestly don't remember any of it. I'm 18 now. I really don't remember a lot from when I was young.

It is really hard to discipline kids who are not your own. I babysit for a couple of little boys. These two boys are 8 and 4. They like to wrestle and use bad language. But sometimes the kids get out of control. The last time that I watched them, the older one pinched my boob, I immediately picked him up and put him in his room. I made him stay in his room for half an hour. He knew it was wrong, because I had told him to not do that several times before. He took me seriously.

Sometimes when the boys use bad language I have to do something. So what I really try to do is have something that they want to do, and only let them do it if they are really good. But at any time if they start cussing and whatnot, I send them to their rooms. If they are good by the time their folks get home, I give them a good report.

Z

[sugarfoxx]

Here goes......

when my daughter was 16......she KICKED me.  Now.....she is 5 foot 6 weighs about 145 pounds......I am 5 foot tall weigh rooughly around 103 pounds.  She kicked me. I hit her in the mouth. She charged me and slammed me into the wall.  My son called 911. The police came.  Not one but TWO cop cars.
I was outside trying to calm down (crying etc....) while she was in her room crying. I didnt know if my son really called till the cruisers pulled up.

They asked what happened.  I said I dont really know......I told her she isnt going to the beach with her friends at 16 years old with no adults and she threw a tantrum.  The cops wanted to talk to her.  The first thing they said to her was........LOOK UP HERE AT ME GIRL!  And they went on to talk to her like she was a DOG.  They said mean things like......I bet you use drugs dont you?  I bet you do bad in school and have lots of boyfriends dont you? Any girl that hits on their mom like that does those things.  Your mom is a single mom. Look at your nice house you have and your nice room. We should take you right now and show you what jail is like cause your going to be there alot when you grow up.
Well......I got MAD.  I said WHOA man listen......you have her wrong.  she gets straight As in school......she has NEVER had a boyfriend let alone kissed a boy......never goes anywhere to do anything rebellious.....so lay off. I spoiled her. rotten. out of guilt because I was divorced.  Other than that......she is a great kid. What ever is wrong with her is MY FAULT. We make our children what they are.......we mold them at a young age.
Now at almost 19.......she is a first year college student at UNCC on a scholarship and made the Deans list. She is still spoiled. She still talks smart to me.......she still doesnt appreciate what I do for her.....but if she ever touches me she knows I wont hesitate to call the cops now and blow her entire life out of the water.  

I dont know what to say. Its hard being a teenager.  Its hard for us parents to understand.  We try.  I try at least.  I dont know.....its hard.....
I want the best for her but wont let her treat me like  a dog. I know she deep down appreciates me....she is just very immature. Very.

[ruthiechan]

I don't think Breast-feeding is abuse.
There are some cultures where it is quite normal to breast feed a 5 year old. . .
I don't think a woman should have their child taken away from them for breast feeding a toddler.

Very true KMW.
I remember the single mother who was grocery shopping with her small son. He was being onery (sp?). She had had a very hard day at work, needed the groceries to make dinner, and just wanted to get in and get out. So, she over reacted to something he said or did (can't remember what now) and she slapped his cheek, leaving a hand print.
Someone called child services and she had her son taken away from her.
I think that's wrong.

The mother above is flat out guilty of child abuse.  First off, she slapped him in the face and second, she left a mark!  I don't care if she was having a bad day or not.  Is it then OK for a man to hit his wife when he comes home after a bad day at work and dinner isn't on the table yet?  It's the parents job to deal with this and if you can't  handle it, then don't have children.  I have children removed from their homes frequently as I am required to report abuse and neglect because of my job.  The parent(s) are then required to go to parenting classes before they can get their children back.  Many of them have thanked me for helping them.  It's normal for children to want to stay with parents even if they are abused as they do not know anything different but the parents have told me how much their relationship has changed since they parent differently.  People will say that their children come to them with problems, etc. but they have no idea what really goes on.  I have children telling me about things they have done or are doing but are afraid to tell because they don't want to get hit.  It's just not acceptable to lose your temper and hit your child in the face.  

Someone shouldn't have their child taken away from them permanently over a mistake.
Anger management/Parenting classes, fine, but you should be able to keep your child.
Where do you live?
Maybe your CPS is more clueful than the ones I know about.

[ShantiDass]

They don't take them away forever.  (usually)  Just long enough to check out the home and to get the family in to therapy and parenting classes.  I always hope for the family to be reunited and to be non-violent.  I did have one child that was happy to go to a foster home.  The police were there and so was the social worker.  The grandma asked him if he wanted to continue to live with her and he asked her if she was still going to spank him.  She said she would and he started singing, "I'm going to foster care, I'm going to foster care."  He packed his stuff up in a hefty bag and jumped in the police car.  He was 5 at the time.  He was soon adopted by another family member.  He is 11 now and very happy.  I keep in touch with him and take him out.

[Marybelle]

Um.  I did mention that anti-breastfeeding group was a fake, right?    I don't think are any people out there that actually believe that...

On the other hand, I personally think that if the kid is old enough to walk up to mom, lift her shirt and start nursing,  it's gone on a bit too long.  But maybe that's just me.  I actually knew someone like that, and, while I can appreciate mother/child closeness, that just seems beyond bizarre...

[ruthiechan]

Shanti,
No offense to you, but I will never trust CPS. Ever.
They leave no room for a parent to simply be human and make a mistake.
They leave no room for circumstances and unfortunate events beyond a parent's control.

I knew this lady, very nice wonderful lady, she was living her boyfriend, he turned out to be a bad idea.
She made a mistake that had her end up homeless with her eight year old son. She was pregnant as well. She took her son to CPS to watch over him while she had her baby (she put the baby up for adoption by the way). She went to pick him up, and they wouldn't let her have him back (despite previous assurances) unless she got foodstamps. Well, guess what? She couldn't get food stamps without her son.
Her son kept wanting to go to his mother, but no, he was put in a foster home.
She fought this for two years, and she lost. Her son was adopted by his foster parents. . .
The sad thing is, during those two years, she was able to pick herself back up. She had a job, a home. Everything they wanted her to have before they'd let her have him back (minus the food stamps).
That's a load of crap IMNSHO.

The child you spoke of is lucky that he got great foster care.
I've known a few people whose foster care was less than stellar.
One friend in particular was abused in all three ways in seven different foster homes before finally being adopted by well-meaning, but abusive parents.

Um.  I did mention that anti-breastfeeding group was a fake, right?    I don't think are any people out there that actually believe that...

The group may be fake but there are some people who actually do believe that extensive breast feeding is sexual abuse.  

[ShantiDass]

Ruthie,

I agree.  DCFS can be a horror story.  I'm just happy that I know many of the SW's and things have always worked out.  Some of the time they don't take the children but monitor them in the home and get help for the parents.  Most of the parents just don't know a better way as that is how they were reared.  
The story about the woman you know is heartbreaking.  That must have been really rough for her.  I know sometimes when the worker just doesn't like the parent, they can really cause problems for them and not try to help them.  How sad.

Re: breastfeeding - I used to work at an Exotic Animal Hospital and when one of the vets was seeing a client, her 6-7 year old son walked up to her and lifted up her top and took a drink.  The mother acted as if nothing was happening and kept up with her questions about her animal.  The vet was a tad distraced.  I missed the whole thing as I was not there that day.  That's WAY too old in my book to be breastfeeding.  

[Calviness]

I actually believe that a lot of the problems in today's society come from a lack of spanking and other discipline brought on by this "new age" parenting that seems to consist of giving the kid what they want or pacifying them with video games.

The problem here is that you're describing two polar opposites.  There are plenty of parents out there who choose not to spank, however, if you misbehave and are disrespectful and rude, you are NOT getting a new toy, video game, etc.  There are ways to be firm without hitting.

[JohariZ]

I couldn't imagine a kid over three brest feeding. Actually, my neice is two and a half and I couldn't see her brest feeding. I think that brest feeding should stop at the age that babies can eat solid foods.

Z

[ruthiechan]

I couldn't imagine a kid over three brest feeding. Actually, my neice is two and a half and I couldn't see her brest feeding. I think that brest feeding should stop at the age that babies can eat solid foods.

Z

Why is that?
I'm still breast feeding my daughter. She's 9 months old and eats solids.
She also has no teeth.
It's great for bonding.

I'll probably start weaning her when she gets teeth.

[shannon]

OK wait -- I thought everyone was saying that spanking is fine, but hitting on the head is different.  Now that some lady slapped her kid on the face, that's OK too, it was just a mistake?  What if someone was annoyed with you after a long day at work -- if they slapped you hard enough that it left a handprint, would you think that was OK, it was just a mistake?  Or would you be pressing charges?  I don't necessarily agree that her kid should have been taken away from her.  On the other hand, I've had long days too, and I know how awful the grocery store is.  I've had many times when we were without a car during my second pregnancy when I had to carry my toddler on the bus to the grocery store, and then carry him and a big backpack full of groceries uphill back to the bus stop with my back aching and being hungry and having to pee, and my kid was tired too and cranky and not wanting to be there either and not understanding that we had to be there or there would be no food to eat at home, knowing that I would be going home to look after him all by myself again because my husband was working and going to school and only had time to come home long enough to sleep, and it never occured to me to slap him.  Sing to him, make silly faces at him, point out the big trucks, ask him to pick out the apples, yes.  But slap him?  I really don't see her having a long day and the kid being annoying as any kind of an excuse.  

About breastfeeding -- the worldwide average age of weaning runs between 2 and 8.  Different cultures see things differently.  That's a lot of people to be judging by our standards of morality.  My oldest was 3 3/4 when he stopped nursing.  My brother (who is now 17) weaned when he started kindergarten, at about the same age (he was born in Sept and he started the year he turned 4).  He is not at all overly dependent on his mother, and I don't remember him being so when he was little.   There are many hunter-gatherer cultures where breastfeeding continues until 5 or 6, and little boys are out hunting with the men before that.  I would hardly call that being overly dependent on their mothers.  FWIW, many who have studied the unnaturally short amount of time that North Americans nurse their children believe there is a link between that and the obsession with oral gratification that we tend to have which often manifests itself in things like smoking and overeating.  It has also been implicated in problems with proper mouth structure (crooked teeth, things like that).  What I think is far more sickening than an older child nursing is how indecent it is considered to nurse an infant in a public place -- women are often asked to leave and do it somewhere private -- when far more flesh can be seen on women walking around wearing revealing clothing or women in ads plastered all over the place wearing next to nothing.  I think it's rather sad that people just can't seem to fathom that some women use their breasts to feed their children, not to satisfy the ogling needs of strangers, and that there is nothing sexual or indecent about nursing in public.

And about babies not needing to breastfeed once they can eat solid foods -- studies of the immune factors in milk show that they increase at the time when children are 18 months.  They are old enough to be eating many solid foods at this time.  They are also more mobile and independent and getting lots of dirty things in their mouths.  It is believed that this sudden increase in antibiotics in the milk is designed to protect children at this age.  WHO recommends breastfeeding for at least two years, and the AAP is planning on changing their recommendation from one year to at least two as well.

[JohariZ]

alright, I forgot to add that also when they start to get teeth...

Z

[ruthiechan]

Eep. I think I need to clarify.
I never said it was okay to slap a child on the face. I think it was wrong of that lady to do so.
But, I also thought it was wrong that she had her child taken away from her.
IMO what she needed was Stress Management and Parenting Classes.
What happened came out of stress, not anger, though Anger Management might be useful too.
That's what I was protesting to.

Shannon, I agree with you about the breast feeding thing.
I've breastfed in public before.
I don't just whip it out for all to see, I'm discreet about it.
I make sure I'm covered (though sometimes Hazel likes to lift my shirt up while eating).
IMO a child shouldn't know that breasts have sexual implications. That should not be an issue.

[ruthiechan]

Uhm, I don't know about you, but when I was that age, I didn't know that breasts were anything but a part of my mother's body, and used for feeding babies. I also happen to remember a lot of things as a young child. My oldest memory was when I was one and a half.
I wasn't sheltered, I just wasn't allowed to watch things that were sexual at that age.
IMO, it's not normal for young kids to know sexual stuff.
I also don't think it should confuse them either.
When I started to realize that boobs were more than baby food sources, I knew that they served two functions. I certainly wasn't confused by that.

edit: My mother also explained things to me when I asked about it.

[shannon]

Thay would be great, but by the time kids are 4, or even as young as 3, they have figured out that other people see mommy's breasts as something other than lunch.

How is a 3 or 4 year old figuring this out?   Not from Dr. Seuss or Sesame Street, I don't think.  My 4 year old knows about modesty -- the tactless little tyke tells the 4 year old we babysit she isn't being modest when she wears a sleeveless shirt  -- but I have emphasized that it is important because our bodies are special, they are gifts from God, not because they are sexual.  He hasn't been sheltered anymore than is normal -- I don't see how a 3 or 4 year old would be in a situation to figure out that people see women's breasts as sexual.  Perhaps if they are being left in the care of older siblings or children who tell them things like that, it would happen.  I hope that I'm not just being naieve and this is the exception, not the rule.

[shannon]

Wow, and you were two, right?  Gosh, my toddler is about 2 and 2 months, and he hardly talks yet, I can't imagine he would be able to understand if someone told him anything about nursing being wrong or bad.  I've asked my 4 year old, and he says he doesn't remember having nursed.  He remembers lots of things that were one-time events before that, so it's not that he's forgotten everything.  If you were understanding things at that level when you were two, I can see how you would come to those conclusions about older kids nursing.  Mine weren't that clued in to such things.