Resident dog picking on new dog!! Please help!!

[strangeduck]

Well, I posted last week about our new dog, the Boston Terrier.  Intros went great..the first few days went great.  But today Cera, our first dog..the alpha of our group attacked him twice today.  I didn't witness the first attack, but the second one, my girlfriend was throwing the squeaky toy for Scout (Cera has no interest in toys, usually) but the squeak bounced really close to Cera's head and Scout went for it and Cera attacked him.  I don't know if it was the proximity, or what, and I'm a little nervous about having them together.  Scout is crated while we're gone, but Cera's free.  I don't want to confine either of them while I'm home, but I don't want Scout to get hurt, either.

I need some advice.  I'm going to call the SPCA helpline tomorrow, but I trust you guys to have good advice, probably better than what they'll tell me.

[Ratwings]

Well I definitely recommend keeping them separated while you are not supervising.  If you don't want to use a crate you could use a baby gate.  Cera might not be used to such a spritely (and strange) dog running around her.  She might have been startled or felt threated to have Scout suddenly running at her, even though Scout's intentions were harmless.  When you say "attacked" what do you mean? Did she lunge and show her teeth and make a lot of noise at him? Or did she go straight for a serious bite? The former response is actually quite normal and appropriate for two dogs working out a new pack dynamic.  How did Scout respond? Did he agress in return?  Did he get the message and show caution in response? Did he become completely terrified? (Hint: the second response is perfectly normal)

If no blood is being shed, it's often best to let them work out their new pack for themselves. Humans aren't very good at speaking dog.  Of course you don't want to be totally careless. Maybe put up the baby gate when you are playing with Scout, if his frisky behavior tends to make Cera nervous, at least until they get more used to each other.  Separating at mealtimes, not allowing both to sit with you on the sofa at the same time also are not bad ideas.  Make sure each dog is getting individual attention, and sometimes when you are home, just put Scout in the crate for a little to give Cera a "break."  Also walking dogs together is a great bonding exercise (preferably with one person walking each dog).

I hope the SPCA didn't say anything discouraging, I know they can be a little over-reactive about aggression in dogs.

Just my 2 cents as a dog trainer! There is a great book I recommend for multi-dog household called "Feeling Outnumbered?" by Patricia McConnell.

Good luck!

[strangeduck]

When I said attack...I mean full on attack with blood drawn.  We were able to break it up quickly enough that Scout only had two small puncture wounds, but to me, drawing blood at all is completely unacceptable.

Scout got the message loud and clear and is definitely not taking anything that is in close proximity to Cera.  However, I don't want this kind of aggression to be an ongoing thing.  I want Cera to understand that while demanding submission from the other two is okay, she must submit to me or my girlfriend or my daughter.

We are careful not to make it appear that we are favoring Scout.  Cera still gets fed first, still gets leashed first...all of that.  I'm sort of out of my depth here because Scout's been here a week and yesterday was the first time we've had issues.

Admittedly, Scout was not ever socialized with other dogs, so he may have made some error in taking the toy that I didn't see.  Incidentally...Charlie has had no issues with Scout and he's Cera's shadow and usually just does whatever she does.

We didn't have any incidents today, but I'm not letting my guard down.  Cera's quite a bit larger than Scout and could quite easily do serious harm.

[chaa]

Admittedly, Scout was not ever socialized with other dogs, so he may have made some error in taking the toy that I didn't see. 

i think that's probably the issue.  with the possible exception of a handful of dogs in the world any breed, temperament, or size dog will be able to live in a pack dynamic.  A lot of today's dogs haven't had the experience of living in a pack situation where they can learn how to be a dog.  it sounds to me like cera is having trouble accepting that this other four legged thing is his closer kin than the strange hairless two-leggeds that put her food in her bowl 
A dog fight is usually nothing more than a misunderstanding, as hard as that is to believe.  A dog that doesn't know what body language he's using will get in serious trouble with the alpha and alphas can do a lot of damage if they dont know how to interpret submissive body language.  whether blood is drawn or not it's still a great idea to take charge and bring the pack into line.

First off, Cera is not the alpha.  in your pack, YOU are the alpha.  You're probably not giving that impression to your dogs so Cera has to pick up the slack and take charge.  Dogs are happiest in a calm submissive state, which means that its your job as the caretaker to give them that holiday from the incredibly stressful job of Alpha.  There are tonnes of resources online, in your local library, or even on TV that can help you master being the leader of your pack.  if you aren't already beginning this training with scout, cera and any other dogs in your household start immediately.  You'll see a complete 360 in the way Scout and cera treat other dogs, since it won't be their responsibility to delegate status any more.

If you're the alpha you get to say where Cera and Scout stand in the status.  they suddenly become equals and (ruling out any serious mental incapacity in either dog) the problems stop.

I second Ratwings (yay dog trainers!) in really hitting the walks hard.  Walking with your dog is the single most Alpha thing you can do that doesn't involve food.  Having your dogs walk in a calm submissive state BEHIND you (if they're in front they're alpha, don't give them that responsibility) is exceptionally powerful.  the dogs dont have to be heeling the whole walk, but they do need to respect your space and your choices and should always exhibit the ears-back, tail-level state of a calm dog during the walk.
For the first few walks when the dogs are still getting used to having someone else be their alpha (a lot of pulling dogs have trouble accepting this) it's a good idea to have one dog per person.  After they have learned their leash etiquette the best thing you can do is walk them side by side.  Put them both with Cera immediately to your left and Scout to the left of her and walk both in tandem.  If someone needs to stop to pee there can be a slight tangle, but you should have no problems otherwise ASSUMING both dogs are in a calm submissive state.
Be sure in the beginning to keep Cera (former alpha) closer to your body.  She still has status even when she's no longer the alpha, and challenging that could possibly make her lash out.

obviously there are going to be hundreds of trainer's opinions on how to deal with this, mine is just one voice.  Its up to your family to decide which solution works best for your time and household.  If you want a permanent regime change that i've found in the past to really be a 'magic fix' for pack dynamics like this, be prepared to spend a LOT of time retraining yourself and not much time training your dogs.  it is challenging for us as a species to re-think how we're interacting with our dogs, since we've treated them like little furry humans for so long.  just remember that they are dogs and will benefit from a strict pack hierarchy, even if we see it as being harsh or cold to them sometimes.

Let us know how it goes, keep us updated and best wishes to Scout.  =]

[strangeduck]

Oi...I hate when I don't elaborate enough, or explain things stupidly.

When I said attacked...I don't mean a growl or a warning snap...I mean a full on attack that left Scout with two puncture wounds. 

And while I recognize Cera as being the dominant dog to our other dogs (and my parents dog and my aunt and uncle's dog and the neighbors dog...we have our own little dog pack), I would never for a second let her think she does not have to submit to me or any other human.

Scout has gotten the message loud and clear...and has been obediently submissive, but Cera is still not totally relaxed around him.  She watches him a bit too intently, and "guards" all the toys.  We've been reinforcing her training, but my concern is actually more that Scout is sending messages inadvertantly because he has no prior exposure to other dogs.  He vocalizes to get us to throw a ball or rope for him and I think that the vocalization is alerting Cera.  I'm not sure how to stop the vocalization....any tips would be great.

They did okay today, so I'm cautiously hopeful, but it will be a long time time before I leave them alone together.

[nakedrats]

From what you describe, it sounds like Cera may (also) be toy aggressive.  If she is "guarding" the toys as "hers" then you have a problem you need to fix.  Dog trainer people please jump in here and give proper advice. 

In my limited experience, from what I understand, everything belongs to the alpha (you).  Those are not Cera's toys, they are your toys and you permit her to use them.  Since they are your toys, it is your job to guard them and you get to decide whether one or the other dog gets to play with them.  Hopefully a trainer-person will jump in here with some good advice for reclaiming one's property as the alpha.

[Ratwings]

I would highly recommend getting in tough with a POSITIVE dog trainer who will come to your house and work with these issues in depth, in person.  This is a really complicated situation and really should not be solved on the internet, if blood is being drawn.  Check out http://apdt.com/ to find a good trainer.

The most important thing is to NOT cause any more anxiety for Cera. She may have been giving him subtle warnings to leave her alone, which he may not have picked up on.  So she may now think he is a threatening dog- hence her overblown aggressive reaction to him.  If you start acting all "Alpha" on her-- which in the popular "dog whisperer" style of training involves far too much force and intimidation-- this is only going to make Cera more anxious, and more likely to be aggressive.  You need to keep things calm and pleasant for everyone, that's the only way you can get everyone to coexist peacefully. Management (keeping them seperated and keeping their routines very structured) is the best way to acheive this, although it may or may not address the issue in the long run.  Which is again why I can't stress enough working with a qualified dog behavior consultant.

Sorry, but I disagree that your dog has to walk submissively behind you in order to make you the alpha. That is a silly and old fashioned myth.  This sounds like a stressful way to spend time with your dog. Walks are for everyone to enjoy! Basic training (as in, walking nicely without pulling, darting, lunging) is definitely important but need not involve any intimidation and can be trained more effectively with positive techniques.

I do agree that it would be beneficial to 100% control all your dogs resources (including food, attention, toys, outside time).  Google "nothing in life is free" of "NILIF" dog training. This is basically a regimen in which your dog must ask for everything (give you a sit, down, stay or other behavior that you request) in order to receive any resource.  It teaches your dog to defer to you, and also that you are the Almighty Source of All Things Wonderful!

[strangeduck]

I'm still not leaving them alone together...though after talking to a dog trainer I've done a few things that seem to help.  I spent a few days doing extensive work with Cera and going over all of her training again.  Slowly reintroducing her to Scout...letting Scout lay on her bed when she's not around, so that Scout is just becoming more and more familiar.  She is relaxing towards him.

I thnk the bigger issue is Scout not knowing how to act around other dogs...not knowing that growling is not just a cute way to get our attention, that both Cera and Charlie take it as a threat.  He's slowly making progress...but like I said I'm not leaving them alone together for awhile.

[Ratwings]

Strangeduck, sounds like the trainer you found has given you some good advice. I would keep going slow and steady. If you see any signs of stress or aggression in Cera when she's around Scout (stiffening body posture, hard stare, and the obvious growling) I would back off a bit with the intros, and let your trainer know what sort of situations are causing this reaction.  Also if you could socialize Scout to other dogs that can teach him good doggy manners, but aren't so easily offended by his cluelessness, that would help him a lot.  I'm glad you got in touch with a trainer, because unfortunately there are 2 things that all dog trainers have in common- they can't agree on anything, and they are very passionate and vocal about what they do! LOL so this thread is probably just confusing you, sorry.  Please feel free to ignore!

Okay... NILIF and "alpha training" are not the same thing. I do not know what "alpha training" means, but other times I have heard people describe it, using that phrase, it has never seemed like a very sound method of dog training. Also, "calm assertiveness" means nothing to me either.  It's not a method of dog training.  The issue I have with Cesar Millan and similar styles is that there is constant talk of calm assertiveness and alpha postures, and other such phrases that don't logically translate into what exactly one should be doing.  Nor is it based on any proven learning theory.  Oftentimes the "methods" are artfully talked around using more catch phrases, and not really explaining the situation properly. I'm not making any personal accusations here, but it's aother reason I'm disinclined to trust such methods.  I have tried watching Cesar Millan on several occasions and still cannot figure out what the heck he is talking about.  I find it hard to believe that he is doing these dogs any long-term good.

From everything I have learned about dog body language, a dog with a straight tail (I assume this means in line with the spine, not held upright?), avoidance of eye contact, and flat ears are all signs of stress, not "calm submission."  This is not anecdotal observation, but basic, widely accepted canine behavior.
http://www.pawsacrossamerica.com/interpret.html
When I walk my dog, he is walking briskly (but not pulling) by my side, behind me, or ahead, interested in his surroundings, and frequently looking up to my face (as i have trained him to do). It's a fun, relaxing, interactive bonding experience for both of us. My dog does not think he is the alpha because of this.  He willingly defers to me and is attentive. I'm not he is perfectly trained, he still gets distracted by random stuff sometimes, but he is after all a dog, not a robot.  But hey, to each his/her own.  I guess it really depend on what you want in a dog, and what kind of relationship you want with your dog. Personally I like a well behaved dog who also loves me and has fun with me and can feel totally relaxed when with me, like a good friend.  Others want a strictly obedient companion who obeys without fail.  I do think it's important for people to know their options and understand the differences in training methods.

chaa I'm sorry if I offended you with my capital letters.  I was simply typing quickly and taking a shortcut around using the italics option.

And last but not least... Heather where are you when I need you? (Probably wisely keeping yourself out of the fray. )

[strangeduck]

I have been letting Scout have play time with Charlie (my shih tzu/poodle mix) and my aunt and uncle's Lhasa Apso.  They're teaching him to play with other dogs and when Charlie corrects Scout's overbearing behavior (doggy rudeness like getting up in other dog's faces and growling when they sniff him) it's not the threat that Cera is, simply due to the size difference.  We've also introduced Scout to spending time with my parent's dog who is older and more relaxed than Cera is just because she's kind of a lazy old lady, but since she's larger, it gives Scout the chance to get used to a bigger dog without fear.

They're both definitely making progress, though because last night, my girlfriend threw Scout's ball for him and he was so excited he wasn't paying attention to anything but the ball and he jumped right on Cera who was laying down and while it clearly startled Cera, she didn't snap or growl, she kinda yipped a little, but not anything threatening, I think it just scared the heck out of her.

I trained Cera myself and she is really a great dog.  She doesn't have as good of a recall as I would like, but other than that she is very obediant.  She really hates change, though.  If we even rearrange the living room she gets stressed out.

[Ratwings]

Aww, that's great that Scout and Cera are making progress!  Hang in there, you'll have harmony in your pack soon enough.  Scout's a lucky guy you found him, I can't believe he was left at a shelter and no one else wanted him!