Goosemoose Pet Portal

This is about Gracie, 2.5 years young. I rescued her in November. January 2, Gracie was operated. Her abcessed tumor got removed. She made it perfectly fine. 2 weeks later, she developed an abcess, it opened up, it cleared off, now, it was on its way to healing. Yesterday late afternoon, I realized that she wouldn't come outside. I didn't think much of it, thought she was just tired. In the evening, she still didn't want to come outside. So I forced her out of her hammock only to see that she was absolutely lethargic, didn't drink or eat, she just wanted to snuggle up with me under the blanket and sleep. She was cold as well. So I kept her with me for about four hours in which she would leak some liquid of darker color (no blood). Honestly, I thought she was dying, so I just wanted to be with her. The emergency room wouldn't have known what to do with her, I'm sure. Which emergency knows how to treat rats? I gave her a lot of soy baby formula which she loved and drank. Then, I put her back into her hammock with lots of towels to keep her warm (she has two rat companions as well). This morning at five, I made them some baby food and Gracie was up and active again. She looked normal to me.
I will go to the vet and see what is / was wrong with her.
Any idea? Truly, my Gracie had death written in her face. I told her if she had to go, then please peacefully fall asleep in mommy's arm, but if she could just stay a little longer with me, I would love to love her some more. She stayed with us.  

  Is Gracie on antibiotics for the last abscess?  Is there any chance that she could be fighting an blood infection from the last abscess?  I am sorry to sound so ignorant, but was she peeing a dark color liquid, or was she leaking the drak liquid from the abscess area?

Yes, she was leaking a rather dark colored stuff, but that stuff didn't smell. It wasn't really puss, but somewhat like it. She was on antibiotics right after the operation (for ten days), then for another ten days when she developed that abcess. Currently, she is on no medication. I just took her and her cagemates outside. All she does again is snuggling into our bed, not running and playing around as usual. She is more active than last night, but not quite herself.
We have an appointment for 4:30 today. To me, it looks as if she has some sort of infection going on somewhere inside her body. The abcess area looks nice and clean. Any further advice is appreciated. Thank you for you advice, ratmansion. You don't sound ignorant at all.

 :worry: Awwww poor little girl.... my thoughts are with you and Gracie.......

I hope she gets better!

Poor little Gracie... hang in there sweetie. :-*

I would definately take her back to the vet.

I wonder if her liver isnt failing.

When you have hepatitis the urine is cola consistency and color. Anyway when they fail its the same thing also the stools are light colored though I dont know if its the same in animals. You may be able to see a yellow to the skin I could in my cat.  

It could have been the antibiotics. The infections or Tylenol (if you used it) can cause the same thing thats why they put the alcohol warnings on it now.  

I hope shes ok it makes me really sad to read posts about really sick ratties. :'(

Marcie

We are back from the vet.
He recommends having her spayed. He can feel a knot right there. It is not by her liver, not by the kidneys. He said if it is something cancerous, he would consider putting her to sleep during the operation. If it is a tumor in her uterus, he could just remove the whole thing. It is about quality of life now. She seems active now, ate a dog cookie at the vet's, now she had some soy milk. First thing she did at home was running into our sheets. She adores our bed.
Now, what would you do in our place? Operate her again? Her wound had just healed up. We are acutally thinking right now of observing her and see how bad or well she is doing. She was doing really bad last night, now she is up to normal, goofing around. I can't write anymore, my heart is too broken. I can't stop crying. Gracie thanks you all for your support for her mommy.

Oh Lisa :( *HUGS*  I'm not quite sure what I would do in your situation. 2.5yrs old is "old" for a rat. I don't know that I could go through with surgery at that age. I'm glad she is acting more like herself today. I hope she continues on that path! Ask her if she'd like to go through another surgery... you might get an answer from her.

-Melina

How's her heart?
Old ratties tend to get heart disease.
If she's healthy other than this ailment I'd go for surgery.

oh, big hugs!
I must confess that I would let her live without further stress and when the aches come and lifes quality goes down, let her sleep.
But thats only my opinion- I let made surgeries also, but the second before two and  a half year- all what they grow older than 2 and some months is a great donation what they should just enjoy as much as possible. What means for me, no surgery stress anymore, healing time, and some days of isolation from the pals.

If its cancer the vet will let her sleep away in time of her surgery, have I understood that correctly? Then give her an extra time without that stress.

At least, I tell you: no matter when a rattie dies or we decide to let one sleep- we feel always like murderes, don' t we? We feel like playing god without being allowed and able to and feel bad and unsure with the question " what if I have stolen the rattie worthful time, that she would have loved to live? I am a time-thief, I am a murderer".

But sense of life is to enjoy, not to suffer. so I try to give my ratties the most possible joy time, and from a moment of two years and some months i only look for them to be without hurts or wounds and so on.

I hope, you understand what and how I mean that. I don' t want to be seen now as a "doesn' t care for old ratties" one or so- but that is my own opinion to that.
 (but sometimes I have the impression that american rats grow principally older than here over the ocean...I had only rats ages around 2 years and 7-9 months, but here I read often from older ones.)


hugs, dolli

Liza honey.......big hugs.  I hope so much that she pulls through.  I would say........gosh I dont know what to say......part of me says NO dont do the surgery but the other part says that it may prolong her life.

No....I wouldnt do it.  With her age against her and she isnt feeling well as it is.....the surgery would put added stress on her.  

No matter what you decide I know it will be the best decision and like Melina said......as Gracie what she thinks. Remember I said it before.....its in their eyes and also in your heart.

Has the vet consulted with another vet?
If they haven't, ask them to.
**big hugs** to you, and I'm saying a prayer for Gracie.  :sad2:

Thanks to all of you.
No, the vet hasn't consulted with another vet. I called the rescue station yesterday (Gracie is a sanctuary rat). Fenella will talk to the vet about Gracie and then decide. I somehow don't feel comfortable about another operation. Yesterday evening, she was running around, checking out the room and then snuggeling up as she usually does. She was more herself. She ate a lot, she built a beautiful nest... She is doing much better, but the vet said this incident might repeat itself. When I look into her eyes, all I see is "I'm sorry, mom." She did not like the vet checking her out. She was very uncomfortable. If I operate her and let's say she lives seven more months and without an operation she would like six more months - I would go with the six more months. I don't know. Fenella will call me today and tell me what she recommends. I don't want my Gracie to be in pain (which appearantly she is not in right now). This is her:

(http://cyberpawz.dyndns.org/coppermine/albums/userpics/10054/normal_Gracie05.JPG)

Oh, Liza!

I don't dare to tell about my vets date today.
The vet thrown over me compliment by compliment over the rats, that they are okay, they just get more vitamine C now, and for my book, he read, and said "oh, I studied the wrong thing, I should have seen more of life behind the bar" and "oh, how you can play with words (yeah, you americans, who read: I wrote in german, that worked out better  ;) ) " and so on.

I got out of him wiht a low cost, a sack full of compliments, that I got red in my face of and allover well.doing rats. At the moment, Zeus won' t be a lot more than 2 when he gets..

but Gracie: remember Vino. Maybe she got a call from there? That there waits a new world, new things to reveal, new health completely? Maybe she has only waited so long to see YOU and to FEEL YOUR BIG LOVE to take at least that one good, hopeful for others and comfortable feeling as a rememering up to there where no sorrows are?

I try to see it in the eyes of my ratties, but still its like i have described before.
Now its easy to say "rather 6 months wihtout stress instead of seven with". But when these 6 months are done, you will build your heart a grave out of the thought " damned, what if i had done the surgery" and so on. no way out, that will definitely come, I am sorry to be hard in telling it, and if you want, hate me, if it helps, but...i can' t change it.

Talk with the vets, wait what comes, and if you can do nothing else, than keep on doing what you are best in: GIVE LOVE. Thats the best

medicine
console
therapy
woundhealer.

big, big, allbiggest hugs ( do you see my little arms flutter over the big ocean to reach you?), dolli

Thanks dolli, you know I won't hate you.
My love Vino has all the other ratties up there in heaven who keep him company. He doesn't need my Gracie.

Hey, Liza!
How can we know, what the beloved souls are whispering to each other? They have an own clock inside that can ring without that we see a reason why.

enjoy every moment you have with her- but don' t forget (vernachlässige) the other ones!
And so go on, now Gracie is here! So don' t worry too much, that she doesn' t have to be in worry about you!
Listen a little to the song "a time to wonder"- and then feel luck again that she is HERE! Will you?

love, dolli

If you're not comfortable with the surgery then don't do it. Go with your gut.
If your gut is screaming at you not to go through with it- listen to it.
You know Gracie better than anybody.

Is she still leaking that stuff?

She is adorable, BTW. A little Sweet Pea!  :-*
Thanks for posting the pic.

No, she is not leaking that stuff anymore. The vet said it came out of her vagina. I don't think she has a tumor in her uterus, because I had three rats who had tumors in their uterus. One lived a very long time with it (they were very old rescues as well). The stuff that came out of their genital area was more of a bloody consistency. Gracie's isn't. But she only leaked three times, now, their is nothing anymore. She is asleep right now, but yesterday night she was so cute! She fell asleep right by my leg, on my skin, so that I couldn't move anymore and my right side of the body fell asleep. But she was a happy camper! She really appears happy to me. She has all she desires and needs. I will try a treatment I got from very good friends of mine. Does anybody know about this?

Yes, she is very adorable and has a very sweet personality! She is thanking for the compliment!



R.A.T. (Rat Anti-Tumor) Formula:

*Lipase enzyme (Suggested Brand: Enzymedica Lypo)
*HealthForce Non-GMO Lecithin Powder
*Larix (Suggested Brand: Either Eclectic Institute Larix Powder or Atomic Echinacea Powder)
*IP-6 Powder (Suggested brand: Source Naturals; but any brand should be fine)

All ingredients should be available at a health food store.
We don't have actual measurements yet, unfortunately. Jameth just puts a whole bunch of all of the above in a big jar and mixes it really well.

Then we give a teaspoon of it 2-3 times per day. We've had some successes, but we've also had a few stubborn cases that didn't seem to respond.  
 
 
I made a small batch and mixed 2 tsp of each of the powders and opened 8 of each capsule and mixed together. I also added 8 caps of Mycoplex Coriolus.

The ingredients are going to cost you $80.00-$100.00. I bought the IP-6 in capsule form as the powder alone was over $80.00.

Quick update.
I just found two spots of bloody liquid in the hammock. That means Gracie is leaking some blood. Good news or bad news? My first thought: good, she's leaking blood, that means there is a tumor in her uterus. Am I going right with this? Three of my six girls in Germany had a tumor inm their uterus. They lived a long time with it, happy and active. Well, a long time means about half a year. Now we have to think about spaying or not. Now
that I know it most probably is a tumor in her uterus, I'm leaning towards an opertion as she is very active again, she is not sneezing, her heart is strong and healthy. I'm not sure about it though.

My Helena had blood out of the vagina when she had little, but (leider) spreading little knots there. The first time a superspecial doctor here removed them with a (Hundeaugenzange) thing, with what vets open the eyes of newborn dogs. Thats small enough to go inside the vagina of a little rat and so no wound is open.

And Cecilia had that a little and just got a little KALIUM as it meant, that her "period" is not regularly and so she must haven' t had it for some months and then it came out and was because of the amount of (eggs? from monthly being able to get a child) more and visible bloody.

Love dolli

Dolli

You are a very wise woman.  I just read your post how you said that maybe Gracie got a call from Vino......and with me losing eight rats to cancer and to myco in just six months......I have to wonder if maybe they were not called from their brothers to join them.....otherwise I cant imagine why they would leave me.

Liza.......hugs to you today.  Let us know how Gracie is.

I just found a tumor the size of a peanut on my other mouse (her sister died the other day in my hands) and with mice and tumors......there is no hope. They rarely survive the surgery.  At least our rats are stronger in that sense.

hugs

How is she doing today? :worry:

I just got home from work. I brought her and the other seven noses some organic baby carrots which they are devouring right now. She second I entered the room, the stormed out of her hammock to greet me and she wanted to come outside. She seems fine to me, active, curious, loving me endlessly... I will clean out the cage shortky and see if there is any discharge.  Thanks for being so interested in her well-being. I really hope she won't get another episode like the other night.

I found some blood again. Yes, I'm pretty much sure that she has something in her uterus. That's why most probably next week (the week starting on the 16th), she will be operated. Or could the cause of the blood be something else? Any suggestions?

Mostly likely that's what it is.
I have a question for you- do you feel comfortable with and trust your vet? If so, then rely on the wisdom of the vet as well as what you're feeling.

I trust our vet, and when in doubt, I always ask her what she would do if it were her rat or guinea pig. She's always given me a thoughtful answer to that..... and it helps.

**hugs** to you and Gracie.
hang in there.....

This is what I got from the rescue station (weecompanions). I copy this in here so I can get some input from you all and see what you think about it. To me, it sounds reasonable. Even though my Gracie seems up to normal and fine, there is something going inside of her and nobody can know if she is in pain and is only hiding it well. How did I end up being so attached to her? Her black eyes charmed me from the first day on. With that little head tilt, those crossed eyes... Just too cute!
Ok, here it is:


I talked with Dr X tonight and if you were in agreement while she is well we could schedule a spay.If when he gets in he finds that there is a tumor that is connected to other organs he will close her up and we will know that her time is limited...no heroics.If it looked really bad once inside we could even consider the possibility of her not waking up????? Or we can wait and see how she does, the only gamble here is that if she starts to feel bad her chaces of surviving surgery are reduced because she is
unwell. We also have to consider what if this happed at 4pm on a Saturday afternoon. I would be happy to pay for a spay if the tumor involves the uterus only giving her the chance of longer life however if it is extensive my view is comfort measures only. What do you think?

Well, if the doctors say, a surgery has a more than at least 50% chance, that at least she will wake up again (in germany often still not the "new" gas narcotics are made but the injections and there the risk is higher as I heard)
and if they are sure neough of themselves to be able to improve your darlings life for the next months- then do it.

But if they just say "oh, its a try, maybe, but with high risk that maybe not"- like (schulterzuckend, "naja, wir sind auch nciht sicher"-mässig) then think about again.

hugs, dolli

The vet is very knowledgable about rats and operations. He uses gas to make her sleep. Her other operation is totally healed up now (after a month), you can't see anything, other that she is a little naked around her butt. She did get an abcess after the other operation though. I'm comfortable with this vet operating her even though I'm kind of nervous about this whole thing. But what are my options? Leave her like this? I need to be harder, I have to stop being such a whimp. I need to use my reasons more than my heart. My Gracie needs help. If she doesn't survive it, at least I tried to help her. I hate playing God.