Goosemoose Pet Portal

Here's the situation. We recieved Micah from my friend and he fathered Keela's latest litter. That was about a month and a half ago. We kept Micah and he has been in a cage with our 'grandma' Marshy. Marshy is 24 1/2 months old and has no medical problems and is showing no sign of aging (yay!). Micah gets beat up by our other boys and Marshy's too old to have babies, so we put them together.

Last night, I saw Micah mounting Marshy. I separated them immediately and when I turned Marshy over, she was as purple and blue as I have ever seen. She was definetly in heat. Now I'm really worried. Micah is currently alone because he can't go with the other boys, he's really shy and they beat him up. Marshy is with our other girls and is doing fine.

Could she be pregnant? Don't ratties get too old to have babies? If she is pregnant, would she be likely to die in labor because of her age? Would she have 1 or 2 as opposed to 10? What should I do?

Why on earth...

You should never, EVER house intact males/females with each other, regardless of age.  Why not get all the boys neutered?  Or all your females spayed?  Even better, get both done! 

You should get Marshy emergency spayed, and soon. 

Why, at any point, would you think it would be okay to put an unaltered male an female together? There is no time line that can be applied to every rat in every case as to how or when they will stop being fertile. Regardless of her age, you should have known better than to pair them together. Especially because of her age you should have never paired them.

Yes, there is a high risk of her dying before, during or after. There's also risk to any pups she may have. If she's as healthy as that, get her into the vet for an e-spay. She will handle a surgery better than the tax of a litter at this stage in her life.

On another note, if this Micah was a breeding rat, and I use the term loosely, why were his cage arrangements not discussed, with the original owner telling you putting an unaltered male with an unaltered female is not okay?

Your breeding mentor which you previously said you have.... should have told you that there is no certain time when rats can no longer get pregnant.  It is never ever safe to put an intact male and female together.  You have been breeding, you should know this!  :(

Oh my goodness.....what the *bleep*?!

I second the e-spay.  Like....yesterday.

Like everyone else said- EMERGENCY SPAY.  Now.  No excuses. 

Also, Please halt your plans of breeding.  It is really obvious from your posts previous and current that you do not have the correct guidance at this point in life to be undertaking this kind of responsibility.  These are not little toys we are playing with - they are living, breathing and most importantly - feeling, lives.

At some point maybe you will find a more knowledgeable mentor who will aid you in making the right choices for your rat kids.

I agree entirely with TEK.  One thing after another...

Maybe you didn't know any better, but you really should have, particularly if you are breeding.  Now, you've put an elderly rat into extremely unnecessary danger.  If you don't get her spayed, she could have serious complications from the pregnancy and at her advanced age I'd be worried about doing an invasive surgery like a spay.  This was not a wise or responsible choice, and unless you get really, really lucky, this poor rattie is going to pay for your mistake one way or the other.

She's 2 years old, and in good health. Just because she's two years old does NOT mean she can't get pregnant. Yes, rats eventually become "too old" to get pregnant, BUT you don't know at what age. Many people say at about 18 months of age. This is NOT a steadfast rule, nature and real life rarely are. Most of the time it gets harder for the animals to become pregnant before they actually cannot get pregnant anymore. But again you don't know at what age this may be. It might be 18 months for one rat, but it might not be until 30 months for another rat. The fact that she's in "good" health will also increase the chances of her actually being pregnant. There is a chance she might not be, but there's also a very big chance she could be. And at her age there are a lot more risks involved for her to carry to term, deliver, and raise the babies. Think of the risks associated with a 60 year old human getting pregnant and having a baby, now apply those risks to the rat. She could spontaneously abort her babies mid pregnancy. If this happens and every baby is resorbed successfully, you won't have any problems. BUT if the babies are not successfully resorbed, she can die. If she successfully carries to term, there is a chance she can have deliver her babies successfully. There is also the risk that she'll have complications. Likely at her age she does have lower hormone levels than when she was younger and in her prime, and these lower hormone levels can cause very serious issues during birth. She might not be able to deliver all the babies, and then may die. She might have trouble even starting the delivery process, and can die. Then if she does successfully deliver all the babies, there's a risk that the deliver and the rearing process can so tax her body that she can still die. As you can see there is a very real risk of her dying. This is not meant to insult you, but it is meant to show you how serious the consequences can be, and how very serious it is to know your animals well and what those animals are naturally capable of. This is especially important if you are going to be breeding your animals. I hope you take the consequences very seriously and do something to help save this poor rat.

Any update?

Cuterat hasn't been back on the forum since she posted this originally.  :(

Ok. Well, at my mentor's house, he was with all of her grandmas. Then in about one month, all of her grandmas passed and he was alone in his cage. So, when we decided that Micah was a good genetic match for Keela (by the way, he was. She had absolutely beautiful babies), we took him to our house to put them together and we ended up keeping him.
Then he was alone in the cage again because our boys beat him up too. So we decided to put Micah and Marshy together. Dru (my mentor, as you call it) had him with grandmas younger than Marshy and she never had any problems like this. So maybe you will understand that this wasn't an 'irresponsible' decision and maybe you won't. In all the research I've done, it always says that females are too old to have babies when they are two years old.

We won't do an emergency spay, but if there are complications during labor, we will do all we can to save her and the babies. I am hoping that she reabsorbs.

Please say your comments, but don't phrase them like this...'this poor rattie is going to pay for your mistake one way or the other'. Please don't criticize me. I expect some, but don't be so blunty rude and disrespectful. I know that I'm 13 and you probably don't feel that I deserve your respect, but I do. Plus, don't call me irresponsible. It was an honest accident (haven't you made some kind of mistake at one time or another? Nobody here can possibly say no) and I decided to come to you and ask for help. That doesn't sound very irresponsible to me.

'One thing after another'!!!??? OMG! I only post the bad stuff when I really need help. I know that if I post the good stuff, someone will find something that I did wrong. I'm only willing to go through the extremelly rude criticism if I really need the help and advice.

I think someone missed the point that these are breeding rats. For some reason, I don't think that you would spay a rat that you are planning on breeding.

Take these points that I've said (FYI, they all needed to be said. This forum tends to have a problem with jumping on people) BEFORE you post.

~cuterat

YOU SHOULD NOT BREED AN ELDER RAT.  Spaying her will be far safer for her than having the babies.

If you weren't looking to spay her... what the hell was the point of this post?  Everyone's told you she's too old to be popping out a bunch of pups. 

You're putting your rat at risk.  Spay her and SAVE HER the trouble of your ignorance.

You really need to find a new "mentor."  I'm sorry to tell you but your breeder friend does not know what she is doing, at all.  At 13, you should not be breeding rats, especially not under the guidance of someone who does not have a clue what responsible breeding entails.

Spay that poor rat, if you care about her at all, and never house intact [edit: opposite sex] animals together no matter how old they are.  It's not worth the risk.

Well, she's only been doing it for like, 15 years.

No, Marshy was not for breeding, Micah is. I'm sorry I wasn't very specific.

I agree with Ratlets 110%.....make that 200%.  You're going to feel like COMPLETE crap if she has complications and you lose her and her babies.  You are saying it was a mistake and you're trying to be responsible, well then you need to do right by this rat.  Otherwise you're just being ignorant and cruel, doing nothing at all and hoping for the best.

Cruel? Excuse me! I don't want to take her in for a spay which might kill her because of her age, when she might not even be pregnant!

If she's as healthy as you say, it should not be a problem.  There are plenty of people on here that have had older rats spayed.  So what if she is pregnant?  What if she does have serious complications delivering?  I'm sorry to tell you this, but if that's the case there probably won't be anything much you can do at that point.

If she were my rat, I would for sure have her spayed. Complications are VERY real and possible in older rats. And just because your mentor has been breeding for 15 years means nothing. I knew a backyard breeder that had been doing it for about the same amount, and she killed MANY of her older rats from breeding them just because she wanted blues, cinnamons, masked, varigated and so on. She was popping out hairless babies from hairless mothers like a factory, and the mother of my hairless I got from her had a prolapsed uterus and DIED with babies still in her trying to come out into the world. I won't talk about her death, as it's likely to upset everyone on the forum but I suggest you take into consideration what these nice folks have to say. We are all VERY compassionate about each other's rats and it pains us to see problems arising from not taking proper precautions. Please stop breeding, find a NEW mentor and start up your program later with a simple line your new mentor chooses for you. Beautiful means nothing when they are not bred out of proven healthy, pedigreed lines in which health and temperment are the objective, not looks.

FYI, when I say beautiful, I mean HEALTHY and good temperments as well. How many times have I mentioned that health and temperment is what I breed for over color???

Heather, did you get off to a perfect start? What have I had, 2 serious litters? I'm still in the beginning stages and I'm starting to get used to it and how it works.

Well said, Heather.  Just because someone has been doing something for x amount of years doesn't mean they are doing it right, and there have been about a million red flags within your posts that she is not doing things right (and thus you are not getting the quality of mentorship you need to breed responsibly).

I'm sure you have good intentions, cuterat, but that just isn't enough.  Please listen to the people on this forum, especially the truly knowledgeable, competent, ethical breeders like TEK, Sorraia, TheChicagoCrew, etc. and the rest of us who know what it takes to breed and/or care for rats responsibly.  We are not saying these things to be rude or mean.  We are saying them because we are care deeply for all rats, yours included.

your mentor should have NEVER housed him in with intact females.


if you didnt even know you are not suppose to be housing intact male and female rats together then how in the world did you know that he was a genetic match for anyone?



there are so many other alternatives to that situation other then sticking an intact male with an intact female, one of which is  neutering him before hand.


no real mentor in their right mind would put male and female together regardless of age. I'm sorry but Dru is not a mentor, nor a good breeder! Does not matter how many years they have been doing it.


I like to know how in the world you can actually say that the decision you made was responsible in anyway.



Why not do an emergency spay?


why not? someone has to be a voice for that poor rat. Obviously you do not give a care in the world about her health.



No, I'm sorry but you do not deserve any respect. You have done nothing to earn it.


you are VERY VERY VERY Irresponsible!


of course we all have made mistakes. if it wasn't for mistakes, we wouldn't learn. Obviously you have not learned from yours.



I get the feeling you wanted our approval more then our help. There is only two alternatives in your particular situation. Let her have the babies and risk her and the pups dying or have her spayed. Both are still a huge risk with spaying the safest route. We gave you what you asked for. You can not seriously post something like that and expect us not to respond with our opinions. You really want us to pat you on the back and say "OHHHH good job!!!" You got that poor rat into this mess, it is your responsibility to get her out of it!


I'm not even touching this one with a 10-foot pole


I do not quite understand this statement. From what I understand these ARE breeding rats that you got from your supposed mentor. No, you would not normally spay a female that you were planning on breeding which brings me to a question......did you plan on breeding Marshy anyway? I thought the whole purpose of this thread was because she is pregnant and over 2 years old. Maybe I misunderstood something.


I read all your points and found them all not valid. Yes I agree some of us have a tendency of getting a bit huffy when it comes to the welfare of animals, especially when a person obviously does not.

Bottom line....and I'm pretty sure all of your threads end up this way....IF YOU ARE STILL "starting to get used to it and how it works" YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS BREEDING!  This situation is proof of that!  And I'm sorry, but unless you're a kid genius and skipped highschool to go straight to college, there is NO WAY you know enough about genetics to even think about doing what you're doing.  You come on here asking for advice.  People are giving it to you.  Now, it may not be the advice you wanted to hear, but what did you expect?  Did you expect everyone to say "Ohhh that is so sweet!  Congrats Cuterat, we can't wait to see pictures of her babies!"  I've noticed that there seems to be a consensus among everyone, including some very responsible, experienced and knowledgeable breeders.  Do the little girl a favor and save her life before it's too late to do anything at all.  'Nuff said.

How do you know they are healthy?  You bred rats from pet stores to your breeder's males, didn't you?   It is impossible to know if they are truly genetically healthy, because those pet store rats are complete unknowns as far as their lines.


No breeder starts out perfect, but there is absolutely no reason to start out back in the "middle ages" so to speak, ESPECIALLY when ALL the info to do things right IS available to those dedicated and patient enough to seek it.  Why make the same mistakes others have made before you?  The rats are the ones that suffer for it.

By the way, I'm very curious to know what your omniscient "mentor" thinks about this situation.  What was her solution?  And if she's such a wonderful and experienced breeder, why did you come here for advice instead of going straight to her?

Doesn't mean she's been doing it right.  Experience does not necessarily equal knowledge.  For your rats sake I hope she's not pregnant and that you learn from your mistakes and from the mistakes of your mentor.  Neither of you have acted responsibly.  Do your research.  These aren't toys your playing with, they're living beings who depend on you to get your facts straight.

First of all, Dru ran the genetics and has taken classes for genetics.

Why not spay? NO MONEY

I'm not going to nueter Micah. He is my breeding boy.

Dru is a good breeder. You haven't even met her and shouldn't be making that kind of judgement.

It wasn't an irresponsible decision to put them together either. I did my research and concluded it would be fine.

Quote from OdysseyDesign:

why not? someone has to be a voice for that poor rat. Obviously you do not give a care in the world about her health.

OF COURSE I CARE! DON'T EVEN SAY THAT!

And I've made a mistake like this before???

Marshy is from a different line and I never planned to breed her as her mother was a pet store rat and we had no idea what her genetics were. We never saw any reason to put her through surgery and spend the money to spay her.

A tendency to get huffy? hmph

I would ask Dru, but she's out of town and we aren't able to get ahold of her.

No. Marshy a pet store rat. Micah is not. Keela is not. Micah and Keela was the intended litter and Micah and Marshy is the accidental possible litter.

I don't think they're toys. How stupid do you think I am?

You don't have enough money for a SPAY? What the hell are you going to do when she's DYING FROM COMPLICATIONS?

What the hell are you thinking.  You ARE stupid.  I don't care how many warnings I get for saying it, but what you're doing, what your mentor is doing, and what you are putting your rats through is downright STUPID.  I can't even call you ignorant, anymore, as you've obviously been well-informed of your mistakes time and time again.  Stop putting the rats in danger.

Please no cussing. That's very offensive.

Oh please.  Get over yourself.

No really.

If you don't have the money for a simple spay, you should not be breeding rats.  Period.  These are lives you are creating - you owe it to them to provide proper care, including vet care!

And no, Dru is not a good breeder - there is absolutely no way she can be.  Your posts here belie that, completely.  A good breeder would not be encouraging a 13-year-old who cannot pay basic vet expenses to breed, nor giving out the other terrible advice/mentorship she has given you (which we have seen from your posts here).  I am sure she is a very nice person who believes she is doing things right, but look at it this way.  NO ONE here is agreeing with the advice she has given you.  What are the odds that we are all wrong, vs. her being the one who is wrong?

I find this all really, really sad. :(

I'm not sure what way you mean this. I have never intentionally bred rats. I'm sure any mentor worth his/her salt will give their apprentice the experience completely supervised from when the rats are matched, all throughout the female's pregnancy and all through the raising of the litter. You should not be "getting used to it and how it works" because your mentor should have given you enough of a backround for the basics and been walking you through every step, NO ACCIDENTS. I believe the best breeders on this forum have had minimum 2 years of consistant learning and controlled experiences through their mentors. We all start off rocky when we have our first rat and no one to teach us, but the thing is, we get better through knowledge and experience in a fairly short amount of time and when we find sources of information, we soak it up, humble ourselves for our pet's sake and take the advice of those who obviously know what they're talking about.

*snerk* That made me laugh. I have had THREE females OVER the age of three who gave birth at my rescue. One of them was a few days short of being 4. I don't know where you have been doing your 'research', but it obviously hasn't been very in-depth or extensive. There is no set age for females to stop ovulating.

You are very very young to be responsible for breeding rats. At your age, you can't even make your own vet appointments or make the money necessary for getting supplies. You are not even legally responsible for your animals. At this point, you should be assisting an adult, not caring for these animals yourself. If you ever want to be an ethical, responsible breeder, you should stop breeding at once and wait until you can at least get a job. You say you haven't got the money to make an emergency health decision and spay a rat that will most likely need it by the time the pregnancy is over, but you're willing to keep breeding rats, which costs even MORE money than an emergency spay?

Do you even know how to draw a punnett square?

I don't need to meet Dru to know that she is a shoddy breeder. She has been giving you blatantly false advice, and putting innocent animals at risk by putting them in the care of a THIRTEEN YEAR OLD! Most of the ethical breeders I know waited until they were in their 30's before breeding in order to make sure they were in a stable position in their lives and could be 100% responsible for all their decisions. Rushing into it is just going to end up hurting a lot of animals. You are the kind of person I get all my emergency rescues from.

Putting them together was an IRRESPONSIBLE decision! Plain and simple! If you did research and found out that "females can't get pregnant after 2 years old" please link to this research. List some books. Reference some breeders ASIDE from this 'Dru'. Otherwise, you're just a liar. 

ok. if you dont have enough money to spay her, how the heck are you gonna take care of babies, and the health expenses of your older female rattie after she gives birth? That is if the complications that she --might-- have aren't fatal?

And if you are 13, what makes you think you can breed? obviously you arent even mature enough to handle what few rats you have. ITS COMMON SENSE TO NOT PUT AN EFFING MALE ANIMAL WITH A FEMALE ANIMAL UNLESS THEY ARE FIXED! And As previously stated. Just because she's a breeder doesnt mean she knows what she's doing. "ooh pretty boy rat, ooh pretty girl rat, make pretty babies!"
Oi.

you dont deserve ANY respect. I'm sorry.

Edit- Actually, I'm not.

so I take it Marshy isn't on your mom's favorite list so no medical treatment?


you shouldn't be breeding anything until you are responsible enough and ready. You have pr oven time and time again today and in the past that you are very far from being responsible.


I am sorry but I do not believe Dru is a good breeder at all. I do not have to meet her, it is obvious from you that she is not. That or you are just a bad mentoree and she needs to pick someone else to mentor.


How in the world can you say that was a responsible thing to do? what planet are you from? I'm sorry but if you did your research, you would have NEVER put them together and you wouldn't be sitting here trying to save face.


you have a funny way of showing it!


maybe not this particular situation but from what I have seen,  you would think you would have learned from all your past other ones.


this is why you should have NEVER put him in with her.


can you blame us with threads that bleed with such stupidity?


I'm sorry...perhaps work on better communication?


interesting.....


no comment!

I honestly can't think of any ethical, responsible breeder that would hand one of his/her breeding stock over to a 13 year old and just say "Here you go, do what you want with him.  Infact, why don't you put him with that there 2 year old pet store rat and see what happens!"  WTF???

Drache, marry me.   :bow:

Cuterat, I cannot stress this enough.  We are all VERY concerned for good reason, here.  We are not taking the time to make these posts just for kicks.  We are not saying these things just to make you feel bad.  We're (at least I am for sure) desperately hoping something sinks in so that you realize (and point out to your parents, and this "breeder") that your practices need to be changed and remedied, for your rats' sakes.

Don't you want to do right by your rats?  By all rats in general?  That's what we want.  Plain and simple.

Yeah. Ummm...I'll refrain from saying what I was going to say.

You know... it has actually come up on this very forum a few times recently... about whether or not older females can be placed with males.

Do a search, kid.  It's not hard.  You should have asked if you couldn't find anything on search... you obviously did not research deep or well enough.

 :heart:

Cuterat, I said you made a choice and you aren't the one who has to live with that choice, your poor elderly rat does.  Nothing you've said changes my opinion on that.  You keep making posts about your "responsible mentor" knowing full well that no one on this board has agreed with anything she has to say.  It makes me wonder if you aren't just desparate for the attention.

If you truly love rats and want to be involved with rats, perhaps you should try doing rescues and fosters rather than running a breeding problem you clearly aren't capable of comprehending.  Maybe after you've seen rats who have been used as breeding machines and die from the mistreatment, or rats who've been starved to within an inch of their lives or mistreated in other serious ways, you'll actually have some respect for the lives you hold in your hands.

Everyone posting on this board truly loves rats and most have seen the consequences of irresponsible breeders and rat owners.  And yet, you continue to ignore the many voices of experience who tell you that you are making a mistake.  The only conclusion I can draw from this is that you are either cruel and enjoy watching rats suffer, or you're just a dumb kid who doesn't want to learn from the lessons of others.

1. I know plenty of people that have taken classes and still have NO clue what they are doing, but lets just SAY they are competent here.

Why not spay? NO MONEY

2. Uhm. SO how are you going to take care of her if she does not reabsorb and has complications down the line?

I'm not going to nueter Micah. He is my breeding boy.

3. Don't we have enough people in this world that DON'T know what they are doing when they breed? So I DO assume you have homes for all of the proposed babies, you must have a ton of them it sounds like.

Dru is a good breeder. You haven't even met her and shouldn't be making that kind of judgement.

4. You are correct, we can only judge her by how you have been "trained". I think that says enough right there.

It wasn't an irresponsible decision to put them together either. I did my research and concluded it would be fine.

5. Really? Because there are fact supporting both sides, however it has been stated MANY MANY times it is NEVER OK TO DO THIS. I don't know any compitant rat owner that would EVER risk the life of an elderly female this way. I don't care WHO says they never had problems.

OF COURSE I CARE! DON'T EVEN SAY THAT!

6. And you are showing this how? By sitting back and waiting? By waiting until she may be fully pregnant....nice, really and how many people on here have stated you cannot tell until they are about ready to have them? More than a few dozen. So you would rather risk her life later on down the line.....

And I've made a mistake like this before???

Marshy is from a different line and I never planned to breed her as her mother was a pet store rat and we had no idea what her genetics were. We never saw any reason to put her through surgery and spend the money to spay her.

7. I can see a quite a few good reason to spay. Reduction of ovarian tumor and mammary tumors (and other cancers). Removal of possible risk of infection of the uterus. Longevity? Oh wait one more----100% decrease in risk of unwanted pregnancy.

I would ask Dru, but she's out of town and we aren't able to get ahold of her.
8. But an Emergency vet or vet can be called.....I assume of course. Because they are license to practice medicine and do occasionally know whats going on with your animals, unlike someone who has not gone to vet school for 7 years (I assume here that Dru is not a vet, at least I HOPE not).

No. Marshy a pet store rat. Micah is not. Keela is not. Micah and Keela was the intended litter and Micah and Marshy is the accidental possible litter.

9. I don't even know where to start on that one. How many generations have you gone back on your lines I wonder?

I don't think they're toys. How stupid do you think I am?
10. I'll partially answer this. The definition of a toy

"An object for children to play with.
Something of little importance; a trifle.
An amusement; a pastime: thought of the business as a toy."

You do not have the money for a e-spay. Yet what happens if there was a complication in the "intended pregnancy", what happens if the breeding female gets an pyometra and she needs to be spayed? What happens if one falls ill? What happens to the pups if she dies? What happens if a pup gets STUCK??

You are "toying" with this rats life. And your other females life as well. As well as the question you presented? I think that has been answered.

I'm not familiar with breeding, but common sense tells me that the advice you were given is completely off-base! And it just makes me absolutely sad that an e-spay is not an option because of money when there is enough to supposedly support regular breeding. I don't feel that you are being a responsible rat owner, let alone breeder.

This thread just makes me very, very, VERY sad. As said before, unless you are a child genius in medical school, you have no place breeding. None. Wait until your age has doubled to even consider it. You'll look back on this when you get older with very different feelings than you're having now.

At least I HOPE you will.

This is Cuterat's Mother, the person you have slammed.  You're right my daughter is a 13 year old that doesn't stand a chance with this group of piranhas.  It is clear that some of you have respect for people and ratties, the rest of you, well I shouldn't use those words.  My friend Dru is one of the best people I know.  She and I both took the high road last time, by not responding.    13 year olds sure are naive, I think she actually thought you people would be kind.  I'm really not sure where she got the idea there's not enough money, I guess that is a 13 year olds view of an adults decision process of when to put it out and when not to.  I had a vet charge me $125 for a surgery, then tell me that it wouldn't change anything.  I guess he thought I just wanted to pay money to feel like I had done something for my rattie.   I get the feeling you people would agree with him.  I'm glad to hear that ratties have successfully had babies 3 and 4 years old, because now I have every reason to believe she will be just fine, if she has conceived.  Don't worry I wouldn't ask any of you to take our mutt babies.  I am sure there are loving homes waiting for them.  I hope none of you women have any unplanned pregnancies.  You people need to get off your high and mighty pedestals and get a life.  I thought you might be interested in a definition for people like you guys.

fanatical:
Possessed with or motivated by excessive, irrational zeal

Don't bother to respond for our sake.  We won't be following up.

Moderator, please lock this thread.

Listen. Consider the fact that we are all here giving you advice because you are asking for help. You made a mistake by putting a female rat in with a male rat. That's been said so many times I won't go into that. But now, you can FIX THE MISTAKE by spaying your rat. Everyone makes mistakes, but what's worse is not learning from that at all. I wouldn't want you to run away from this forum because you feel attacked. You seem to need a lot of advice and help and if you're willing to listen to it you can really improve the situation. Now, if you were to spay your rat and come back here admitting to your mistake and asking for guidance, I promise you'd find a lot of help. Before you continue breeding, especially learning from a "mentor" who seems to have no idea in the world of what he is doing, think about all the THOUSANDS of rats who need rescuing. Do you really want to just add to the unbearable numbers that already need homes? Fix your mistake now before you make the situation even worse for your poor rat!

I do not see where spaying is the only alternative for this situation.

And honestly, I have to admit that a lot of the replies here are much more brutal than helpful....   :eek:

I hope you, your daughter, and the ratties do well. B

I know it was stated you will not be comming back. So I'll post this just to have it hang there unnoticed by you but maybe for some other person who does a search on accidental litters.

It is slightly opinionated that spaying is the ONLY option you have. Its not. But it IS the best option. Do consider this. Would it not be more economical for you to have her spayed at a time when her body has a better chance of rebounding from such an invasive surgery as opposed to possibly when she is carring to full or partial term and having an emergency c-section performed, not having the babies live and having her die after surgery due to the stresses impended on her body?


I know we sound "fanatical" as you call it. And yes I am over zealous about my rats and about the wellbeing of others on this forum. I am in 100% in agreement with you. I am passionate about my animals and I respect them as much as I respect what powers that let me behold their wonderful little lives that cheer me every single day. They are a GIFT, a luxury that we are so fortunate to be blessed with them. We are their guardians and caretakers and hold their fragile little lives in our sometimes clumsy hands. We make mistakes, but we are given the responsibility to accept them and fix them.

I also have been a veterinary technician for 5 years and have seen what can happen if YOU DON'T have the surgery. I have had animals die in my arms and on operating tables from pyometras and C-sections and people who have not realized there were pups stuck in the birth canal. I have seen it with my own eyes. I have tried to breath life into mothers that were not breathing due to the taxation the birthing process had on their bodies. The older the patient the higher the risk if done late in the game. The chances of survival are MUCH better with an e-spay then if there are any complications with the pregnancy. I have watched pups die one after one because they were too young, but if not for a c-section the mother would have died. I have seen the horrors first hand.

If you would like proof please PM me I will give you my vets # and I'm sure she would be happy to go over the benefits of this procedure with you.

Please understand, we mean the best for your rats, the rats........and we have been given a situation that should have not occurred in the first place.  If you are to look to a womens menopause you will find it may be similar, but in some cases different. There are humans that enter this much later in life that others as well as women who are younger too. You cannot EVER be sure on age and there are many documentations out there to prove this. This is a very difficult lesson to learn, as you have now seen, but whats done is done and cannot be un.

So really when it comes down to it, we are suggesting you do whats best for your rattie---carrying to term is not the BEST. And giving birth can shorten their lifespan and take a furious toll on their delicate little bodies.

So wheather you read this or not. Its out there. For you or the next passerby who may have been stuck in the same situation.

Best of luck to the health of your rat at this time.

*laughs*
Im sorry. yes they are brutal but in the beginning they were truthfully trying to be helpful until she proved that she didnt care what anyone really thought, and wasnt going to do anything about it.

yeah i'll quit now. people are ignorant. :mumum: :angry4: :BangHead:

I agree.

I do understand people's frustration with this situation, but when Cuterat has stated more than once she won't spay the female, why continue with the barrage of insults, and why continue arguing?  Attacking her for her decision doesn't help the situation (right or wrong), or this rat, and only hurts the community as a whole.  It's not a good look.  If I was a newcomer to this forum and came across this thread, honestly, I doubt I'd come back. 

Drache:

Cuterat's mom:

Since Drache's statement is the only one I can find mentioning females over three giving birth, I can only assume that you, Cuterat, based the above statement on that.  I don't think Drache said anything about the SUCCESS of the birthing process with these mothers.  S/he didn't elaborate on them at all.   You've been given so many reasons NOT to believe that she will do just fine, yet you take THIS statement as proof that she will be okay??

I am just really hoping that this rat is not pregnant at all.  I hope you've been weighing her regularly and have a good idea of whether she is or is not.

Also, this:

There is no comparison between what happened to your rat and any of the women on this board accidentally getting pregnant.  All of the women on this board have a choice of whether or not to put themselves at risk for pregnancy, and a choice about what to do when they become pregnant.  Your rat does not have the ability to make either of these choices -- you are making the choice for her and you seem to be doing a pretty careless job of it.  Again, I just really hope she isn't pregnant and if she is, and you don't get her spayed, I hope you will at least seak the advice and help of an emergency vet when she does give birth.

Could you please elaborate on this?  I would like some ideas of what you would think is best in this situation?

I am not a breeder so I do not know all the options out there.  I figured in this case it would either do an E-spay or go thru with a high risk unwanted pregnancy.  Are there other options?

Hi!

I am the only one who said anything about rats OVER 2 giving birth. But they were anything but successful. One of the moms died with all but a few of the pups inside. I had to hand-raise the remaining pups and lost an additional 2 out of 4.

The second one had all her babies, but died while trying to nurse the babies, and again, only some of them survived.

The third one had all of her babies and lived, but all the babies were stillborn.

Keeping in mind that all three of these girls were given to me by self-proclaimed 'breeders' who also thought it was okay to put old girls in with boys.

So as you can see, this is FAR from successful. This is like expecting a 60 year old human to have and raise a child. Even in a country where abortion is a huge controversial issue, many people would see it as the best option for someone who would most likely die in the birthing process.

It is highly unfair for you to call us unkind possessed piranha's when WE are the people trying to help you come to a logical conclusion about your rats in order to HELP YOU! We are not slamming you for breeding. We are not slamming your daughter for being 13. We are only slamming the whole situation because you are refusing to look at the FACTS and making an informed decision. You have been duped and mislead by this Dru person, and the sooner you realize that, the better. Just because he is a friend (or family member) DOES NOT MEAN he has the ratties best interest in mind or is going things in a good way.

We have a lot of differing opinions on this forum, and you KNOW something is wrong when not a single person has defended what you are doing. Ask yourself, what is the likelihood of ALL of us being wrong, and Dru being right? Right now, you are talking to experienced vet technicians who have been working with rats for years, breeders, rescue owners, vets(?), pet shop employees and owners, etcetc. People who have a wide variety of experience and perspective. Yet given the evidence, no one here thinks that your Dru is being a good example for you and your daughter. Take some time out to speak with other rat breeders. You don't even have to contact them through this forum. Search them out online and talk to them. I garuntee you that they are all going to tell you the same thing. E-Spay your rat. As a breeder, you should have the money saved for it. The chance of her giving birth without complications is infitesimal.

Also, breeding is a competitive world. Both you and your daughter seem to have a very hard time handling criticism and advice. If you want to get anywhere breeding rats, you are going to have to stop wearing your feelings on your sleeves and suck it up! I was very surprised that this thread remained civil at all! On one of the rat forums I frequent, most of the members are rat rescuers who viciously attack anyone who even thinks about breeding rats. Be prepared to run into that a lot, no matter WHERE you go.

 ::)

Yeah, I'm sure they'll be juuuust fine. But at least if they aren't, you can try healing them yourself. Worked so well for Minty. ::)

You know, not to beat a dead horse or anything but I was going through this person's post history because it seems like some people know more about her breeding history than is explained in this post, and I found this, that she posted in the Dog Forum:


I had to LOL!

Teeheehee, holy crap.  Talk about being a hypocrite.

Now we know where Cuterat gets her attitude from. Cuterat's mom, you should use this thread as a teaching tool for your daughter, not come on here and slam everyone when your daughter went crying to you about the meanie rat people.

I have a 13 year old daughter too, and I would never let her breed rats, even though we have a GREAT breeder we occasionally get rats from and we could go to for advice and mentoring. If this happened to my daughter (which it wouldn't because she doesn't have to do any "research" to know not to do it) I would spay the female and make her pay for it (at least partially) out of her allowance. Just because the rat is from a pet store doesn't mean she doesn't deserve vet care. Cuterat's posts made it seem like this was the case.

We've had accidental litters (rats got loose) and we learned from our mistakes. I've been spoken to harshly about having a free-roaming boy rat who got the girls pregnant when they got loose, but instead of getting defensive, I thanked them for the advice and made changes so it wouldn't happen again. That's how you defuse the people who are upset over what happened.

I am also caring for all the rats that I made. They will live with me for life if they don't get adopted. I'm sad because a lady was found with over 100 rats in her home, and they're all sitting at the shelter, waiting for homes, and I can't take any in. :(

I'd like to be a "real" breeder someday, I'm 32 and trying to study the genetics stuff - it's not easy!! :confused: Probably the most I would do is get a mom from my breeder - she has a program where you can borrow a pregnant Mom from her and raise the babies - it teaches kids about "The miracle of life" and the breeder (Hilloah of Ratz Realm) finds homes for the babies.

Anyways, this thread made me sad, angry, frustrated, a whole range of emotions! I couldn't sit here and not respond.

~Joy

I did the same thing!

I almost wish I didn't because it makes me very freaking upset reading through that and then seeing this.

I guess the conclusion we can come to is that some people are just dumb.

that wasn't nice. but its true. LOL.

the quote you have from her in the dog forum makes me even madder. GAH.

I really don't think that this is going anywhere. Yes, obviously what she did and her attitude towards her mistakes are wrong, but we're kind of beating a (skeletal...turning to dust now..) horse here. We've made our collective point, if she doesn't want to learn, then she won't learn. I know it's tempting to blow off steam(believe me I know!), but I'm afraid someone new may come here and see this and think we're going to jump on them if they've made a mistake(which is not the case in most situations) or just need advice in general.

Important point to newbs: don't be afraid to ask questions, obviously we're all here to help rats & rat owners. But if you ask a question, expect answers that you might not like. We won't lie to you to make you feel good.

^ I LOL'd at your post because your rank is "Newbie".  :yelcutelaugh:

ENOUGH!!