Goosemoose Pet Portal

I tend to choose feeder rats over fancy rats because I know I am saving rat from being food to a snake. Am I making the wrong choices?

Well I don't see a problem with it since you would be getting them from pet stores both rats are most likely going to have health issues. You will have to socialize the feeders because most often they are skiddish and sometimes nippy. I recently got 3 little manrats from the feeder bens. Well they are actually "pet rats" but hardly anybody goes there to get pets they are almost always used for feeders so they werny very social :(. I have had mine for almost 4 weeks and I have used forced socialization and they have come a long way. I did have one nipper out of them (Hershey) but he didn't bite real hard but just enough to hurt. So I actually had to let him bite me so I could squeak so he could learn not to bite. Fortunately he got out of that in about 3 days. He is still the most skiddish out of the 3. All of them are still not fully socialized but they are coming around slowly but surely. You will just have to be up for that challenge if you decide on feeders. Sometimes it is best not to save the feeders and just get a regular pet rat. As bad as that sounds it's true. Feeders can sometimes be permanently damaged from their past experiences. Though most of the time they are too young to have any bad experiences. Also, a lot of times they are taken from their mother too early and that can cause malnutrition throughout their whole lives. I can't really say much since I rescued "feeders" but I have the time and money to work with them. Just I few things to think about.

On the plus side I feel that I'm going to have a very close relationship with my ex-feeders from spending so much quality time with them and being the first human they can trust. I felt really close to my boy (Pickle) the other day because I was walking around the house with him on my should getting him more used to it then my mom wanted to hold him and she put him on her shoulder and he pooped and peed on her like no other and I just felt like I am getting a good bond with them. It just feels like I'm the only human they trust and it just makes me feel so good inside. Like I'm their actual mom. And they lick me and groom me all the time. Ok I've been ranting throughout this whole thing so I'm just going to stop... lol

♥Amber

EDIT* I forgot to say that I think it's great that me and you and a lot of other want to save rats from being fed to snakes. They will be just like normal pet rats with time. I say go for the feeders if you want to go through socializing them and you have money for vet bills if they become ill (it you get fancy rats too). Anything would be better than being fed to a snake.

Well all of my girls are from the 'pet' cage. I love them just the same. If I could rescue or go for the feeders I really would. Infact I plan to next rat(s) that come my way. A lot of stores lately haven't been selling live feeder rats only mice. I guess thats good then. ;)

Our feeder rats have been just as awesome as the fancy ones.  I think it is all about your preference!  I like the idea of rescuing too!  

I have a feeling this is going to turn into one of those "it's not rescuing" threads.

All my ratties have come from feeder tanks... accept for two which were put up for adoption at a pet store.

Well I don't care what anyone say it IS rescuing. How can saving a little ratty from a painful death not be rescuing. I think if he's up to the challege then to go for it!

♥Amber

LOL on not rescuing.  To each his own...if you buy a feeder rat you are rescuing it from snake food! I understand where people are coming from in saying you shouldn't buy from a pet store because it contributes BUT we all have to do what we feel is right.  "Rescuing" isn't easy!  I have been doing rescue for 7 years now...started with dogs, then dogs and cats and an occasional small pet..now we do dogs and quite a few small pets but it is always an issue...just from pounds or owner surrenders too or out of the paper or do we take pit bulls or not and what if the dog bites or has a really expensive injury or this or that and my conclusion is...do the best YOU can!  That's it! ;D

ETA~This is also reminds me of the starfish story..the little boy running along the beach picking up starfishes and throwing them back into the ocean and a man goes up to him and says, "why bother, do you see how many there are...just look at the beach...you cannot even begin to make a difference"...to which the boys picks up one and throws it into the ocean and says, "I made a difference to that one".   ;)

all three of the girls i have are feeder rats...im getting another soon that is a rescue though....the thing with feeder rats is from most of the pet shops ive worked at/talked to the rats the sell as feeders ARE fancy rats..my rex was a feeder rat..i really see no difference besides buying a rat labeled pet or feeder except feeder rats are usually not handled so they are skittish and nippy compared to pet labeled ones..but there are some feeders who despite the lack of attention are very sweet and social..my girls were right away..

but as for the "rescuing" the rat from a feeder bin..its a great gesture to save them from being fed but the store will just replace them with another rat...so you are giving them money and they just buy another to feed..

I find they're typically no more difficult to socialize than fancy rats. Some of my best rats have been feeders. What really gets me are full grown whitey's in feeder tanks at Petco. I got two old boys in this situation and both were EXTREMELY sweet. The first lived to be at LEAST 3, but he was likely older than I originally estimated him, which would have put him at 4+ years when he died (he NEVER had a respiratory problem, he had heart disease and cataracts in his old age. He was medicated for the heart disease but there is no cure, so this is what got him in the end). He was the healthiest rat I've ever had. He was also sweet from the start. He'd just sit with me and let me pet him from day one. VERY calm.

My other adult PEW was much more skittish at first, but turned out to be one of my favorites. Learned to come when he was called, came to us for attention and love. He was a sweet rat. He was healthy the whole time I had him, but died MUCH too soon accidentally. We really miss him. The way I see it is often these rats are exposed to much more and need to build up stronger immune systems than many better bred rats. I had 7 rats from a breeder that all died at young ages. They were exposed to my other (healthy) pet store rats, but where all rats tend to carry things they may not show symptoms of, I believe that when the breeder rats who were sheltered and kept in prime conditions for so long were exposed to this they couldn't handle it. I've actually had much better luck with health with all my pet store rats than my 7 rats from the breeder. 

And there is little I feel better about in my life than taking home a big PEW rat from a feeder tank and giving him a good rest of his life. They will ALWAYS sell feeder rats in pet stores, in my opinion, because reptile owners need them. In my opinion, purchasing a FANCY rat is worse than purchasing a feeder rat. Because it's possible they won't carry fancy rats if there's no market, but keeping feeder rats in stock doesn't seem like something that will stop. And the large rats, especially don't sell well. When I got my last full grown white boy the pet shop employee said these particular rats had been there for at least 6 months- when he started working there. Clearly snake owners didn't need such large rats, but overstock in small rats leads to large rats. I'd rather not see them live there for half their lives only to die in a ten gallon overcrowded tank... and it seems almost an unavoidable situation considering what they're sold for.

Fancy rats are domesticated rats. Feeder rats are "fancy" rats also, so it's all the same.

I dont know of any breeders in my area so I have not choice but to go the pet store route when it comes to obtaining rats. I have had a a few fancy rats as well but I always feel sad when I see the poor white rats sitting there only to be sold as food. The feeder rats I have rescued have been great pets and no better or worse than the fancy rats I have had. Most people at the pet stores commend me for buying the feeder rats for pets and not food. I do understand that snakes have to eat too but at least it wont be from my ratties. I have 3 new boy white rats and I cant tell them apart. One seems to like me alot and always wants to sit on my shoulder and lick my neck and groom my hair lol. Thank you for all the replies and I am glad to find out that feeder rats are no different than fancy rats.

Yes I have noticed that almost all the rats I have obtained from pet stores have developed health problems :( Hopefully my next rats will be from a local or semi-local breeder.

feeder rats ARE fancy rats....there is really no difference in that aspect...

petstores will sometimes sell only PEWs as feeders but they ARE a type of fancy rat...the only reason the say feeder and fancy as petstores is so they can sell one more expensive than another..but they are ALL fancy rats

I'm sure everyone here knows that "feeders" are "fancys" and are just using those terms to distinguish the difference in the way they're sold.
Anyway, all of my babies from the feeder tank have been sweethearts! I've had absolutely no problems with socialization, and only one who had hormonal agression. in fact, every one of my favorite rats has been from the feeder tank. I definitely see it as rescuing, if you don't take that ickle rattie home it WILL be bought by someone else, and for much less pure reasons! The thing is, they have so many health problems!!! I lost 4 rats in less than 2 months not long ago, 3 of them had major and numerous bouts with myco also. My other feeder boy has had probably 10 abscesses in his 2 years, myco, and head tilt! Oh yes, and this same group also had Sendai Virus. I can't deal with getting sick rats anymore, worrying that they'll die too early from a chronic illnesses, and that they'll have a horrid virus when I bring them home to begin with. So from now on it is breeder rats for me, my two little AMR girls have been EXCEPTIONALLY healthy in their 18 months.

Yeah I once bought an older female rat with head tilt from the petshop because nobody wanted her :'( She was the sweetest rat and I was always proud of her when she first learned to climb etc. because it was so difficult for her with her head tilt.

Ahh yes the rescue from the feeder bin debate.  :doh:

I also say that you are "saving a life" when you buy from the feeder bin, when there's a purchase price involved its "saving" not "rescuing" (adoption fees are not prices btw).

I rescue myself.  I get those feeder rats second hand...hehe.

Dilbert (well known on here) was a feeder rat as I am sure most of mine are.

BUT also remember that sometimes the only difference between a feeder and a pet sold rat is their colour/markings...the less desirable rats out of a litter often get thrown into the feeder bin but they are the same as their siblings  :puppy_dog_eyes:
Btw The Rat Fancy is actually the owning of pet rats not the actual rats themselves  :wink5:

I'm in the same situation, I haven't found a breeder in southern New Mexico, so mine are feeders. My  :heart: rat Kakie came form the worst pet store I have even been in. The kind straight out of a horror flick, dark, dingy, no food bowls, just food thrown on top of the pine bedding. But since there old as feeders, they can get away with it. I was about to just say "Thank you" and walk out (after the 1.5 hr drive to get there, since there seemed to be a shortage on females) but I looked in the tank anyhow... The Cinnamon pearl (right, red color with a blue undercoat) caught my eye, bigger/older the what I wanted, but I put my hand in, and she climbed right on top of it. Had to take her home...really just didn't have a choice. She has been the coolest female ever, and I have had rats on and off for most of my life. I'm SO glad I took her. Ill NEVER go back to the shop, but I have my baby.  :love4:
The other 3 I got from a "breeder" kinda. She breeds and takes good care of the babies, then screens them for temperament. the one that are less friendly go to the "feeder bin" and the more mellow/ friendly ones are sold as pets, and you have to call her in advanced to see the pets. The other 3 are really great as well, still hand skittish, but one you have them in your arms they are very friendly. And once they go back into the cage they wan right back out. I think once they are old enough to completely free range, they'll be perfect  ;D

When I usually go in for a pet rat, I'm rarely look for certain colors, I play with all of them, and the ones that pick me get to come home.
...although, there have been one or two occasions where they...ummm....ahem... followed me home. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. (least, while my husband is in the room  :BlueDumboSmileTongue:)

Oh Wow lilspaz68.  Please let me know that the way I have read your last comment is not that you are above the rest of us in how you have "saved" ratties!!! To me there is no difference between rescuing or saving from a pet store.  How could you possibly say that saving is second hand He He.  Then you go on to say somethiing about owning  fancy rats.  Please clarify becauce i'm not getting a good vibe from you. I have rescued and "saved" and to me there is not a whole lot of difference.  Everyone I have in my home (21) to me has been saved/rescued from something.  As long as they are with someone who loves and cares for them does it really matter!!!!

i think she was saying that she takes in peoples unwanted rats that probably come from feeder bins...so itd be like a second hand feeder...so take clothes for example if you buy it straight from the store its first hand...but if you get it after someone else owned it its second hand..so she has feeder rats second hand...she was given a feeder rat someone else owned and no longer wanted

In my opinion, you might be feeding the industry a little more, but that "rescue" matters to the individual rat that you saved. As long as you realize that and aren't completely oblivious to how this game works, then go ahead and "rescue" one from the store, we're all entitled to an unofficial rescue (or a few).

As I understood it, she wasn't saying "saving is secondhand" just that the rats that she rescues are usually surrenders at the shelter, or older rats on Craig's list, that sort. Most of which were originally feeders that people got board with, making them "second hand" as in shes the seconed hand to handle them.

But please correct me if Im wrong  :P

Also, my local shelter dosent deal with small animals, I believe they are just euthinized. They might possably take them in if they know someone is willing to take them though. The closest "shelter rat" is a 9 hr drive. everyone once in a while they pop up on Craig's list, but its really few...so, its usually off to the petstore for me. I do try to pick the better stores. The cleaner ones that upkeep their animals better.

Read some of her past posts - there is no bad vibe you should get from her at all. She's an angel in the best sense of the word when it comes to helping rats in need.

You know it's so hard to understand when you are talking this way!  Here's my voice:  I have 21 ratties 6 are from an unsuspected pregnancy, one rescue, the rest from different pet stores.  I have, Hooded, PEWS, Dumbos, and who knows what else, I have never looked at them as what their lineage is just that they would not be in these small aquariums with no one to take care for them and love them.  So to me, there should be no debate about saved or rescued because they all are saved and rescued.  To say that we have "feed into it" so be it!  I have still "saved at least more ratties than most people.  If I had more room I would save more.  If I had more time and money, I would make sure that no more ratties would go unloved or sold as feeders!! But don't we all wish for that!!

i dont see anybody debating on the issue. i think you are taking what she said and twisting it a bit. i dont think she was trying to offend you, i dont think anybody was tying to offend anybody. and nobody questioned your saving of rats. i really dont understand why you are so upset about what she said...

I don't understand how people can not buy rats from pet stores just because they do not want to "support" the industry of feeding rats to snakes. I personally feel that a couple people not buying rats for pets at a petstore isnt going to shut down a business or stop anything, so you might as well rescue the rats from the petstore and save an individual life. You'll mean the world to that rat :) (or rats lol)

HooooBoy!!!  Okay, before I start, I would never suggest to anyone who has taken a rat into their home and loved it and took care of it that loving their pet is a mistake.  I would never say that it's okay to feed live rats to snakes.  I would never say that it's okay for those animals in petstores that are intended as feeders should live out their lives in 10 gallon aquariums breeding with their 29 brothers and sisters until they die a terrifying and painful death.  I have rats who were meant to be snake food and that idea just breaks my heart.

That being said...each time we buy a rat from a pet store we are perpetuating the cycle.  Yes, people are always going to need rodents to feed to their snakes, and to not be a hypocrite, I should point out that I have a ball python who eats two frozen/thawed mice every ten days or so.  I enjoy my snake and I enjoy taking care of him, though I can't say I "love" him the way I love my furbabies.  However, as people are being more and more educated they are making a move towards feeding frozen prey.  Not quickly enough, it's true, but it's happening, and most reptile experts are advocating frozen prey for herp keepers.

Every time we buy a rat from pet store, particularly a corporate pet store that gets its rats from a company like Rainbow Exotics, we are putting money in the pockets of the very people who have the least respect and concern for these little angels.  They don't care where the rat goes...in a rat fanciers cage or a snake's belly, it's all profit to them.  

Many years ago, pet stores carried kittens and puppies, and apparently some still do, though I've never seen this practice.  What made a difference were the thousands of cat and dog rescuers who lobbied for people to adopt rather than buy.  People knew that kittens and puppies were suffering and that they could help one cat by buying it or they could help lots of cats by not buying it.

I know the difference is that kittens are not being bought as snake food, but for every kitten purchased, a shelter cat is euthanized, so it's not all that different.  We need to put our energy into getting pet stores to stop selling live feeder rats.  And we're not going to do that if we keep buying them.

Yes, it's hard to look into those beautiful pink or ruby or black eyes and walk away knowing what the end will be.  Trust me, I know how hard.  So I try to stay away from the feeder bins.  When I'm in Petco buying my frozen feeders and somebody asks for a live feeder, I try to educate them to the dangers of feeding live prey to their snakes.  I have to force myself to steer clear of the rat tanks.  And I'm not always good at that, and some have come home and I wouldn't want to give them away for anything though I know my money went into the pockets of people I wouldn't spit on if they were on fire, and that makes me sick to my stomach because I know I rewarded them and made it easier for them to keep hurting innocent animals.

I don't believe feeder rats have any less right to a loving home than the pedigreed blue dumbos I so covet.  I just know that the only way to get these creeps to stop breeding is to stop giving them my money.

And for those who say they can't find a rescue or a breeder, I tend to be a bit skeptical, because I thought that at one point, too.  I live in a rural area where the mere mention of rats is enough to send people scurrying for the rat poison, and there are never any at our local shelter.  However, since I have 28 rats, don't breed and have stopped buying from pet stores, I promise that you can find them.  It may take awhile, and you may have to drive a ways, but you can find them if you really want to.

Okay...I'm off my soapbox now.  Let the strangeduck hating commence.

 :thumbsup2: Strangeduck!

I think you have really put it best! Its very true!

as for adopting..you can take a look in the adoption forum here..and other sites..im sure you can find someone close to you..and a lot of people if you are seriously interested will try their hardest to get a rat to you. A lot of rescues ive talked to will do everything in their power to help rats go to a good home..some have drove MANY miles for HOURS and started trains just to ensure a rat somebody didnt want or couldnt take care of gets to a great home. If i started coming here before i bought my three girls i would have adopted..doesnt mean id give them up just to adopt i love them to death...im adopting one from a lady here and itll be my final rat until i have more room. After the three i have now i vowed id NEVER buy a pet from a store again! all my other pets ive had growing up have been adopted i dont know why i didnt adopt rats  :doh:

Yeah you do need to read any of my posts I think. 
I rescue, I take in the unwanted, the about-to-be-euthanized, the "I am going to set him free in the woods", the rats no one wants because they are aggressive, biters, too frightened to be "the rat they wanted", etc.  I have recently taken in a few sick (almost to death) rats that I am medicating and loving and giving that chance.

You save when you buy from a store.  There is nothing wrong with saving but it is not rescue in its purest sense.  I think all rats deserve a wonderful life, I just cannot buy them anymore myself, I don't even go into petstores and now get all my supplies online or at pet supply stores.  I couldn't resist those store rats as much as anyone else,  :puppy_dog_eyes:.
Dilbert is a famous little fellow here that I took in.  He was a feeder rat orphan, the guy bought him, then I took him off his hands when he was going to set him free in the woods, since he couldn't take care of him any longer...Dilly is a 2nd hand feeder...
Saffi and Fable were feeder rats that had been through 2 homes and were almost going out the door to be taken to a reptile store at the age of 2...they are here...2nd hand feeders...see where I am getting at?

from wikipedia
The name "fancy rat" has nothing to do with the "fanciness" of their appearance but derives from the meaning of "to fancy". Thus, one who keeps pet rats is said to be involved in "rat fancy."

ALL my rats are wonderful in my eye, no matter what they look like or where they came from or even their temperament. 

Excuse me now...I have to take my beloved old nakie girl Lisbet to the vet before work to be euthanized.   :'(

Lilspaz, I think it's a shame that you felt you had to defend yourself here.  Anyone who's been here any amount of time knows what a wonderful, caring, and non-judgemental person you are.  We know your history, and who you've rescued, and how much you do for rats and people who need help.  Argh.  Makes me a little mad.  We love you, Shelagh.  :heart:

And, pertaining to the topic at hand.  My first two boys were petstore boys...I make no differentiation between "feeder" and "pet"...petstores all get them from the same place.  I loved them dearly, and wouldn't have traded them for the world.  However, knowing what I know now, I have said, I will never buy another rat.  There are enough rats around, even if you don't live near a breeder, I'd bet, that you don't need to buy any.  I could go the rest of my life never looking for another rat to own, and still always have rats, because the vets and places around here are getting to know me as "the rat lady", and I get calls when there are rats who need homes.  And don't even get me started on Craigslist.  *sigh*  IBTL

Isn't that the truth! I currently have 4 Petco rescues (from their rescue program, I didn't buy them & Petco does not ask for an adoption fee, and includes a cage if the rats were handed in with one!) and there are ALWAYS rats for adoption when I go in. If there aren't any rescues near you & you don't want to support rodent farms, then check Petco. We don't have Petsmart here but I believe they have an adoption program also. AND don't forget, if there is a rat that's been sitting at the petstore for awhile, or has something wrong with it, you CAN ask to have it for free. I used to be afraid to ask, but I've gotten 3 rats this way - Vertigo the "3 legged wonder" who was in the feeder bin, and Dilly Boy and Dorian my hairless boys who sat at the petstore for 6 solid months.

I have no problem with people getting rats from petstores I have brought home a few petstore rats over time. However I dont go into petstores at all anymore I buy all my stuff online. I dont want to fall in love with that little face and bring them home thus making room for the petstore to get more rats in. Buying from a petstore is showing the petstore there is a demand for these animals and I dont want to help that at all. If others do it thats fine but I myself refuse to be a part of that.

Lilspaz, so sorry about your old girl.  I think a lot of us don't make a big distinction betweeen "rescue" and "saving" but you point is well take.
 
Some of my rats are "adoptions" some "save" and two really "rescued" (in Lilspaz, ' terms  ;D ) and I love them all.
My  :heart: rat is a big old squishy boy who belonged to two girls whose mother would not care for him (and their two other rats) when they went to college.
I took all three - one has passed on but the other two are my senior citizens.

I find it so strange how people can ignore the fact that you might be "saving" one rat from the feeder bin, but you're also paying money to reward the people putting the rat there, and paying to put SEVERAL MORE directly in its place.  People like to criticise those who don't consider buying from a pet store "rescuing", because "oh it matters to that one!!!"  Well, it also matters to the several more that get bred in cruelty, raised in cruelty, delivered in cruelty, and sold in the same way, funded by YOUR money.  Just because some of us are able to think of those UNSEEN little eyes suffering at the rodent mills, being euthanized in shelters, or sitting at overflowing rescues for lack of homes instead of the ones directly before us at the pet store where we "just went in for bedding!", doesn't make us heartless or uncaring.

If people want to buy a feeder rat or "pet" rat from the pet store, fine, that's your choice, and if you are morally ok with it, great for you.  But don't kid yourselves it's some kind of heroic act or any form of true rescuing, unless you got that rat for free.  The bottom line is who and what you support with your money, no matter HOW small the amount.  I'm sure someone will pipe up that it makes no difference and the feeder/pet industry will always continue and blah de blah blah, but that's just apathy and lame excuses.  It sure makes a hell of a lot of difference to me and my rescue when people choose to "rescue" a pet store rat rather than adopt, who then ends up pregnant and has 15 babies which then take up 15 more homes more rats in my rescue could have had, which then prevents me from picking up the next batch of rats slated for euthanasia at the shelter because I have no room for them.

Very simple.  I'd rather not give the $7 to Petco to get a black hooded, or a blue self, or a PEW when I can go down the road to CCRR and pay $8 to help out a second hand feeder (you know, the ones who came from the store and oops, now they are boring, or momma had a litter and we aren't keeping any of them)

Will it shut down the industry because I didn't buy the rat?  No.  Will it break my heart to know I walked away from 8 adorable black hooded boys, knowing that they are likely to be snake food?  Yes.  But how can I ignore any of CCRR kids and say too bad, so sad for you, I like him more?  I like CCRR more than I like Petco (well, that's not hard, I love CCRR and HATE Petco), so I'd rather give my money to a group I can respect.  Besides, if I take 2 or 4 out of CCRR, that's those spots now open for the next feeders who are boring.

Tell my black hoodie girls and the babies that oops, I should have said nope, can't take you home because I'd rather spend $14 for a pair of petstore girls.  Which is what they were.  You can all stay on cedar in a 10 gallon tank.  You'll be dead soon.  Tell my PEW boys that nope, don't want you because heck, someone was stupid and thought they should teach their child that pets are disposible.  Tell my hairless boogers that nope, don't want you either because the store was stupid enough to sell a male and a female, and the person was stupid enough to think that a pair of 5 week old rats won't breed because they are "siblings".  Tell my sick boys that nope, should have passed them up for a "healthy" pair because no one in their right mind takes rats like this.  Tell Sunday that nope, should have left her to die in labor with eeps she couldn't deliver.  Tell my Smushy Smeezies that nope, they should be in the shelter still because if I buy a petstore rat, he's not snake food.

Hoodies and Hairless are from idiots.  PEW boys are from store, but return and a round about rescue.  The sickies are from the adoption tank at the store, so they are a purchase.  Sunday was a give to me from the store, so define her as you'd like.  The Smeezies are from the shelter.

And if you don't want to talk to my crew - tell it to the two hoodie girls on CL in the area who are living in a hamster cage.  Guess what girls, you are from the store originally, but now, you aren't worth saving.

How do you shut down the industry?  Shockingly enough - get the reptile people to.  Get them to spread to word about live feeding being a hazard to the animal who is looking for dinner.  Get them to shut it down.  Yes, I know.  SOME reptiles will not eat PK/T and will refuse anything other than live.  They are few and far between.  A PK/T hamster is better than a live small rat.

I think feeder animals that are raised 100% behind the scenes to be sold as frozen feeders are kept in worse conditions than almost all live feeders.

No, let me try that again in all caps to get it through your heads.

FEEDER ANIMALS THAT ARE RAISED 100% BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE PUBLIC TO BE SOLD AS FROZEN FEEDERS ARE KEPT IN WORST CONDITIONS THAN ALMOST ALL LIVE FEEDERS THAT PEOPLE CAN SEE IN THE STORE.

At least live feeders have a chance of getting homes.

You haven't seen the Petco here.  Which, having seen other Petcos and Petlands - it's pretty much the norm.  Apparently water bottles are optional.

But, the parasite load on my sister's snakes PK/T - well, never found any and the snakes are clean.

I've checked my rats, including some who I KNOW are from the store supplier - give me the dewormer and give it to me NOW. 


To borrow from a reptile person I know - At least the live rat gets a chance to kill the snake first.

I don't understand how people can have children of their own instead of adopting, but that doesn't mean that I get to criticize their choices or judge them to be somehow morally inferior because they choose to have biological children instead of adopting. That would be absolutely ridiculous: its none of my business, and I don't know the circumstances.

Most of the rescue rats that I've come into contact with have been pet store rats before they were rescue rats, so like it or not, the only way that loop is broken is by going to a breeder in the first place. Frankly, I think until people understand that pets aren't disposable, there will have to be rescues. Its much more productive to educate people on how to properly care for a pet than to argue about where they get it. Additionally, rescue animals, from my experience, tend to have a much higher rate of health and temperament problems: unless its a very cooperative owner surrender, most of the time you aren't going to get much information. Buying from a breeder or a pet store, at least you know the challenges you're going to be facing.

Additionally, not everyone is going to have a rescue or a breeder near them. It's two hours to the nearest rescue from where I am, and that's with good traffic, which would require me to miss a day of classes or work. The nearest breeder is, to my knowledge, over four hours away. With gas as it is, its unreasonable to expect people, particularly those of us who are students or are unemployed, to drive hours and hours for an animal that we don't, ultimately, know much about.

Its nice to take the moral high ground, but at some point, that high ground falls apart. Yeah, buying things at pet stores supports the system. Buying things at Wal-Mart supports employee mistreatment. Buying a car supports pollution. Buying make-up supports animal cruelty. Buying make up that isn't tested on animals still supports animal cruelty, because most people aren't going to know which brand you're buying--its just make-up to the vast majority of people who see you, and make up is tested on animals. Going to the movies supports enforced gender rolls based upon the ideologies present in the movies shown at that theater. Going to churches supports religious intolerance because some churches are intolerant. Just because some pet stores are bad doesn't mean that all of them are, and supporting one might be endorsing the system, but its also supporting that one good pet store. Extend your argument beyond this one issue, and you'll see how ridiculous it quickly becomes. 

I'm not saying doing get rescue: all of my animals have been rescue. All of my animals have had fairly severe behavior problems because of it. If someone chooses not to do rescue, you don't have a right do judge or impute their morality. Attacking someone's moral character is not cool.

I guess my feelings are this: Yes, you're saving -that- rat, but snakes have to eat. I'm personally totally against live feeding, but a rat is going to die to feed a snake no matter what you do. Buying a feeder just supports selling feeders, because now there's more space in the tank and a feeder has been sold, showing that feeders are still "in demand."

I don't like that animals are sold in stores in general though...

I personally think going through actual rescues is the best way to get pets. I got my two rats from a rescue, and if I ever add more pets to my family, they will be from rescues too.

Our owner surrender dog (directly to me) has some of the worst health problems known.  Our shelter mutt is as healthy (and as large) as a horse.  Guess I can't tell you about how a dog is if I get them directly, because I'm not doing that.  As for behavior problems.  Hrrrmm.  Hard to say.  My two girls were the extremes on rats - and they were sisters.  Hayley was the sweetest, nicest, calmest female ever.  Coco was a vicious, nasty tempered biter.


Errm, 3 hours for one person I just drove rats to.  You may not have to drive, maybe rescue has someone who can or will take the drive.  I'm sorry, but I hate that excuse.  How many rattie trains got set up to get Ojai rats out and about?  Or how many to get MRR ratties to NYC?  Or to get any number of rats anywhere else than where they are?  

Does everyone know about rattie trains? Does every rescue have a website with someone you can contact? Is every rescue easily contacted? It took me a day of digging to find the ONE rescue that is close to me. All the rescues that I've talked to are run by people who have day jobs--they can't drive hours to find me any  more than I can drive hours to find them. Ditto the breeders. Unless a rat train is well advertised, people are going to look at the distance and assume it isn't an option. I have no idea what an Ojai rat is, or an MRR rat, for that matter, and until I spent several days lurking here, I had no idea what a rat train was, either. You can't expect people who have jobs and families and lives to spend days figuring out what a train is when they can take twenty minutes and go over basic rat care, then pop over to the local pet store. Make rescuing easier, more accessible to the general population, and maybe pet stores wouldn't be as popular. But, until then, its not going to happen.

Most of my rats are second or third hand, but it's a safe bet that they came from pet stores originally, and probably as feeders. In my experience well socialized rats from stores are just as lovable as rats from a good breeder. However, if the rat is older when they are purchased they can be a challenge. I'm working with some 4-6 month old feeder bin girls right now and it's frustrating sometimes. One, whom I believe to be closer to 6-8 months has been here for over two weeks and still won't even come out of her igloo when I'm in the room.

I have purchased two rats from the store where I work in the past. I felt guilty about it both times, but I didn't love the rats any less. I've found that there is almost never a good reason to buy from a pet store. Whether or not there are breeders or rescues around you doesn't matter. Call the local shelters, tell them you'll take in rats that are surrendered. Many shelters don't have the capacity to deal with rats and if they don't have someone to call when rats are surrendered they are just euthanized. Check Craigs List, Kijiji, Hoobly, all those. You'll find lots of "kids don't want it anymore", "moving, can't take it", "don't have the time for it anymore", "snake wouldn't eat it". There are plenty of easy ways to save rats without supporting the industry that condems them.

Um, in fact, it is optional.  Only about 1/2 the states in the US legally require pet stores to provide food and water.

Here it's actually required.  No comments on enforcement of any animal welfare laws here as we are one of the big 7 puppy mill states. 

Oy.  :doh:

That's the nice thing to say.  There are days I can't believe what people find out of places here - I think Petco is bad and evil (11 ferrets in a hex tank, mice so full they can't touch bedding), then I see the others.  Sigh.

Oh yeah - MRR is Mainely Rat Rescue.  CCRR is Capital City Rat Rescue.  Ojai rats was a BIG rescue out of Ojai, CA, and the hundreds of rats got trained fairly far out.  There are a bunch of other rescues - I think most things here, if it ends in -RR, it's a Rat Rescue :)

If they're too busy to educate themselves, they are too busy for a pet.  The animals are the ones that suffer when people buy them on the spur of the moment from a petstore because "awww, isn't it cute!" is a good reason to get a pet in our society.  Unfortunately, until we have a massive social change in the outlook of our people on how we see animals, nothing is going to change.  Do you know why your average person doesn't know about puppy mills and rat mills?  Not because the information isn't out there, but because they don't care to know. 

Honestly, if someone can't take the time to learn about the pet they are getting and what options they have in getting said pet, they shouldn't have the animal. Twenty minutes is NOT enough time to learn about owning rats.

I lurked on here a while and found a rescue nearly half way across the county that someone had offered to transport for. I only had to drive an hour or so to get them. Did it consume my whole life finding that out? No. But now two boys who needed homes have a home, and I haven't given the local chains the space to obtain more rats to mistreat.

I wanted to point out that the definition of 'Rescue' says nothing about an adoption fee vs buying. I know definitions can differ for different individuals, but technically people are correct when they say they 'rescued' this animal from a harmful/neglectful situation, even if you personally do not agree with it.

 :toothy9:

Yes I once went to a pet store and the pet section was so hot I bought the few mice and rats they had there just to save them from the heat.

Anyway guys you are all great for saving rats from uncertain death by being used as food etc. I didn't want to cause a stirrup with this toping and was just wondering if what I was doing was right or wrong. If I had local rescues near me be rest assured I would be adopting rats from their as well. I would like to save and rescue rats from wherever I can be it petco or rescue etc. It does not matter to me that Petco is making money or replacing the feeder rats I purchase with other ones. I am just happy that I am able to save the rats I can and that I gain great pets in the process. I have one room in my home devoted to my pet rats and am always willing to take in an unwanted pet in need of shelter.

I hope to make many new friends on this site and would like to thank you for welcoming me and my rats in.

Yes I once went to a pet store and the pet section was so hot I bought the few mice and rats they had there just to save them from the heat.

Anyway guys you are all great for saving rats from uncertain death by being used as food etc. I didn't want to cause a stirrup with this toping and was just wondering if what I was doing was right or wrong. If I had local rescues near me be rest assured I would be adopting rats from their as well. I would like to save and rescue rats from wherever I can be it petco or rescue etc. It does not matter to me that Petco is making money or replacing the feeder rats I purchase with other ones. I am just happy that I am able to save the rats I can and that I gain great pets in the process. I have one room in my home devoted to my pet rats and am always willing to take in an unwanted pet in need of shelter.

I hope to make many new friends on this site and would like to thank you for welcoming me and my rats in.

Blackthorn, have I mentioned lately that I adore you?
Here bloody here.

I'd MUCH rather give money to Kaia or Olds Gal or any of the other wonderful folks on this board who run legitimate rescues.
I don't believe in buying companion animals.  It perpetuates overpopulation, funds practices I'm ethically opposed to and adds to the number of animals suffering.  It also perpetuates the idea that animals commodities and objects to be bought and sold like widgets instead of living beings. How does this forethough and active ethical consideration make me cold hearted?  All my kids are rescues, either oops litters, shelter kids, or from actual rescue facilities. I just also get my feeders second hand.

It's hard to walk past those eyes.  I know that.  It's why I do NOT go into stores that sell animals.  Period.
I was willing to fly my MaeMae in from Michigan (she was one of the kiddos at HVRR).  If you really want a rat, you'll jump through hoops to get them home with you.  And there are always people here who are willing to jump with you to help. 

and *hugs* to lilspaz, I hated seeing you have to make the post, hon.
I'm so sorry about your girl.  Rest assured no one here who is at all familiar with you would ever doubt your love of ratties.
I know I always love that you refuse to support the ongoing cycle of abusive mills while still helping so many of the forgotten, unloved rats out there.  Thank you.

Thanks also to Blackthorn, Olds Gal and all the others who run rescues and run themselves ragged cleaning up other folks messes.  You guys are amazing. *hugs*

Melissa

The bottom line is, every rat that is bought from a petstore, feeder, "fancy" or otherwise perpetuates rat mills.  Yes, my rescues probably originally came from a pet store, but then, my Charlie dog that I adopted from the local shelter probably came from some idiot back yard breeder who was breeding small "designer" dogs.  I don't want to support rat mills any more than I would puppy mills.  Each rat that is "rescued" from Petco or some other place that gets animals from rat mills is paving the way for many more to be abused and die horrible deaths, and I'm not just talking about snake food.  I'm talking about rats crowded into tanks so full that they cannabalize each other.  I'm talking about rats who are smothered, or bred to death or simply thrown away because they might need vet care.  Every time you buy from Petco you are supporting that, you are taking part in the torture of innocent animals.  If you can sleep at night knowing that, than you have a much harder heart than I do.

Ignorance of these issues doesn't let you off the hook because the information is out there.  Do a google search on rat care, something anyone who has a pet should do anyway, and you find pages of information about the inhumane treatments of rat breeders.  Any time an animal is bred for profit, the animal suffers, and if that's okay with you, you shouldn't have pets.  The needs of thousands of animals come before the needs of one animal.  It's hard and it's sad, but that's the truth.  And if you lobby your corporate pet stores, if you lobby your congressman, if you simply don't support the inhumane breeders you are at least not contributing to the problem.

I have so many pets that were just "thrown away."  Just dumped because someone didn't do their research before getting involved.  They saw a cute furry rat and didn't know that a rat can't be kept on cedar in a ten gallon aquarium with seed mix.  They didn't know that the puppy they were getting would chew up anything and everything and didn't just automatically know not to potty inside or what the word "no" meant.  They didn't know that a single cat left alone for most of the day would tear up the furniture if they weren't provided with cat scratching posts and some attention.  They didn't know that cats and dogs need yearly vaccinations or their cat had kittens because they didn't know that would happen if they didn't spay them.

We don't let people who abuse or neglect their children off the hook due to ignorance because the information is available, so why should we let pet owners off the hook?  Pets are a commitment.  You don't just get an animal and throw some food in a bowl and think that that's enough.  You don't ignore an animals suffering because you would rather have cable than take your pet to the vet.

To go blithely through life not knowing the affect of your actions is selfish and inhumane.  Information is every where, so ignorance is not an excuse.

"Its nice to take the moral high ground, but at some point, that high ground falls apart. Yeah, buying things at pet stores supports the system. Buying things at Wal-Mart supports employee mistreatment. Buying a car supports pollution. Buying make-up supports animal cruelty. Buying make up that isn't tested on animals still supports animal cruelty, because most people aren't going to know which brand you're buying--its just make-up to the vast majority of people who see you, and make up is tested on animals. Going to the movies supports enforced gender rolls based upon the ideologies present in the movies shown at that theater. Going to churches supports religious intolerance because some churches are intolerant. Just because some pet stores are bad doesn't mean that all of them are, and supporting one might be endorsing the system, but its also supporting that one good pet store. Extend your argument beyond this one issue, and you'll see how ridiculous it quickly becomes.  "

You're right.
Might as well not even try to do what's right, then.  It won't matter anyway.

No.  I hate that attitude.  And I very rarely use the word hate but it's applicable here.
I realize you didn't come right out and say those words, but the quoted bit certainly implies it.

I call BS on the non-animal tested makeup bit especially. Just... gah.  The wrongness of the statement boggles the mind.
If you aren't buying animal tested makeup it matters to the lab animals that didn't suffer for your vanity.  If we all supported ethical companies and small companies and organic, natural companies the world would be a vastly better place.  The terrible, unethical, immoral companies can't survive without money.  Every time someone says, "oh, I'm just one person, who cares if I go to Walmart and buy sweatshop labor clothing and shoes" or "folks won't know I'm buying cruelty-free makeup so I'll just get this cheap Cover Girl instead of Revlon" they are ,in essence, saying that what they want right now matters more than the lives, happiness, and health of millions of other beings.  Because it's all connected.  When we buy chemical crap produced in wasteful, pollution-causing ways that depended on the darn near slave labor of other people and torture of other sentient animals... it matters to a lot more beings than just yourself.

If you DON'T fund things you don't like, if you vote with your dollar and are vocal about WHY you aren't buying animals or certain products due to ethics or cruelty issues then you make a difference.  I may not be able to avoid everything I find morally horrible in the world but I'm damn well going to try.  I'm not going to roll over, do what's easier and hide behind false statements of "nothing makes a difference anyway".  Pardon my language, but screw that!  

And, since I know this will get brough up since anytime someone says anything like this we're called upon to defend ourselves lest we be called hypocrits, I'm vegan, eat damn near all organics, use only all-natural non-chemical cleaners/makeup/household products, bike or walk as much as possible, buy second-hand, I'm sterilized because I don't want to support overpopulation in people, etc. I do all I can to make sure I'm doing all I can.  I'm not perfect but I do my best. It's insulting to me when folks write off all efforts to educate and try to promote better systems as taking the "moral high ground".. as if it's a BAD thing that someone cares enought to bust butt to make things a bit better if they can.

I need to go take a breather.
Sorry mods if I said anything offensive.
I tried to stay passionate but not mean or ugly as much as humanely possible.

This also goes to the poster I quoted.  Not being mean, just... that sort of argument hurts my heart when I'm doing so much and trying so hard.  I've literally spend hundreds of hours researching my purchase choices, my dietary choices, etc.  I've also spend about as long crying over the things I can't fix and can't stop and can't abide.  But never once have I let it stop me from trying.

Melissa

I simply quoted that for the great truth it holds. I have a family, a job and I go to school part time..hell I have zero time most days. I still take the time to read, to really search out what I need for my pets and find ways to get those things without supporting pet stores. Its not about lack of time, I call it "lazy". I drive 500 miles rt to get my ratkids. I make time.

A-friggin-men, strangeduck and Leonakitty.   :heart:

ok... i get what everyone is saying about not buying rats from petco or pet stores. but i still see the other side of not buying ONE rat isnt going to do anything. So how about this... boycotting pet stores altogether! i know i can get everything i need for my rats at a super market. even just buying bedding or a rat dish or a hammock is still supporting them. So lets get a ton of people to either stop shopping at pet stores altogether, or only shop at a pet store that only sells supplies??

Do you go to movies? How about churches? You're using a computer--do you realize what making a computer costs in terms of a carbon footprint? I'm not saying be perfect, or don't even bother. I'm saying recognize the hypocrisy of morally condemning other people for NOT being perfect when you yourself admit that you aren't. Voting with your dollar and trying your best isn't going to do anything at all when six billion people on the planet don't care a whit, or when they all have their pet issues. Sorry, its true. I'm not saying don't do it, but recognize as well that you can't force every single person who disagrees with you to suddenly do a spin and go out of their way to do things that ultimately, don't matter. One person not buying covergirl isn't going to change animal cruelty laws.

I buy organic for myself as well as animals, buy second hand, don't own a car, don't use anything but natural cleaners, don't use ANYTHING tested on animals, and recycle as much as I can. I realize it doesn't make a difference, ultimately. I do it because I morally cannot justify these things, for myself. I protest, write letters to the editor, educate people and so forth because I don't believe these things can EVER be morally justified, and because I know my choice to use organic isn't going to convince anyone else by itself. But I do not make assumptions on the moral characters of others. That is unfair, and that is what I'm seeing in this thread.

You can't say that buying cruelty-free produces "matters to the lab animals that didn't suffer" but refute the same logic when its applied to feeder rats. Sure, if we all supported companies things might change, but we don't. Education is far and away more important than condemnation. Without education, that eyeliner is just another make-up brand that, for all anyone else knows, tests on animals. Without speaking up and speaking out, nothing we do matters. But we cannot speak up and judge, for the latter ensures that none will be heard.

Also, I learned in twenty minutes not to use a tank, the size of a cage I should use for four rats, that rats are social animals, shavings are not acceptable bedding and, in fact, fleece was better, and how to make a hammock. I learned the best antibiotics for URIs, that spaying helps prevents tumors in female rats, and that hey, male rats can retract their testicles. I also, and perhaps more importantly, learned that rats are NOT cheap pets. Until a specific circumstance comes up, what more would I need? Food choices? Five more minutes and I found a link to SueBee's diet, another grain-based diet, a link to food that I shouldn't feed rats, and a comparison of lab blocks.

It isn't that hard.

Why should people be expected to spend two or three hours on the road, when gas is $4 a gallon and time is short, and they have everything else they need? It isn't lazy, its basic economic principle. People act with rational self-interest. Everyone has their line. Like I said, make rescues more accessible, make people more aware. But judging people as lazy and tersely saying that they just need to make time isn't going to help anyone.

Okay, but we aren't talking about ONE rat...we are talking about you and me and 1000 other rat lovers who buy that "ONE" rat.  This is the same logic that induces people not to vote, but keep complaining about the choices of the government.

No, I don't think that my choosing to drive two hours to get a rat rather than pay 6 dollars at the local Petco will close down rainbow exotics, but I at least am not supporting them, and as for HumanAbstract's argument that every thing we do has a negative impact, yep that's true, but that doesn't stop me from supporting the ideas I feel most passionately about.  I use homemade environmental cleaners.  I drive, yes, but not a Hummer that gets all of eight miles to the gallon, I drive a small car that gets closer to 30 miles to the gallon, and I don't just do that for frugality reasons. 

When you love animals, when you see them suffering and you do nothing to stop it, you contribute to the people who are causing the suffering, you are just as guilty as they are, and I personally can't live with that.

And if you can't afford the gas to drive a few hours to pick up a pet, you can't afford the pet itself.  Life is about choices, and I try to make the ones that will allow me to sleep at night.

And yeah, I judge people by my standards.  My closest friends share my political and idealogical views because people who don't care about animals, don't care about the environment, don't care about what's going on in the world are people who upset, annoy and disgust me.  I have to live with the fact that my mom doesn't get why I have nearly thirty rats, why I'm adopting another cat when I have four already, why I have two dogs, why I give money to the shelter, but I don't have to live with that from people I choose to be my friends.

My "if I won the lottery dream" has nothing to do with fancy cars and fabulous clothes.  I want to open an animal sanctuary.  I would love to be a foster parent.  I want to do all that I can to make sure that I live my ideals and don't just talk about them.

im sure if you list where you are...i bet atleast 5 people could tell you a rescue or a rat in need in your area or can arrange to bring a rat to you....most of the time all you have to do is ask..the lady im getting Lady from Saturday is driving SEVERAL miles just to bring her to me because i couldnt find a way to her...shes going out of her way to get a rat to me so i can give it a good home! she is very kind and i owe her big time for it! I think the trip she is taking is close to 6 hours ONE WAY! i know there are plenty of people just like her on this site...all you have to do is ask...but the thing is nobody is asking..just assuming that nobody has the time or is willing to make that trip....i bet you if you got your name out there and said you need transportation help there are PLENTY of people who will help you....

What, exactly, do you suppose we're not doing that we should be doing to be more accessible? You've said it twice now, without giving any solutions. Short of running a prime-time ad on national TV, I couldn't be any more accessible, as I'm sure I can say the same for most other rat rescues.

Lets all get on the bandwagon about how much we are doing to try and make a difference in this world..fact is? At the end of the day what did you honestly do that mattered one wit? Likely not a whole lot. I wont sit here and preach that I recycle faithfully, buy organic and dont own a car. I understand what my ecological footprint is and how it affects this world along with millions of others..thats not what we are talking about here.

You buy from feeder tanks you support rat mills/feeder breeders..end of the argument. Is it wrong? Thats completely up to you and how well you are sleeping with the choices you make.  Do those animals deserve loving homes? ABSOLUTLEY. Just dont sit there and make excuses for not getting up and asking, researching and really making an effort into finding a rescue or bugging them at the shelters about rats if and when they come in. There are alot of people floating around this board that make that effort everyday, to find those ratkids that need homes, that nobody else wants. They dont run down to the nearest dump of a pet store and buy one there because of the price of gas. Love comes with a price at times and if its gas money or lending a helping hand to help a rat get to a forever home, then its worth the cost.

We have a problem with unwanted animals, abused and neglected because of ignorance and apathy. If you dont care to know, you wont. You have to be willing to put yourself a little further out there.

Ignorance is bliss.

 :thumbsup2: anita1216

Websites would be nice: none of the rescues I know of around me have them. A nationwide rescue web would also be nice. If the rescues were run so that there were people delegated to tasks, this could be fairly easily accomplished: I know several web-designing college students who would do 'sites cheaply to build a portfolio. Charity dinners, bake sales, etc. I know that some of the rabbit rescues I know about do education days, where they teach how to do basic care on rabbits. Do an education day on how to make a hammock and provide fleece and basic sewing materials. Have the rescue staff make the local shelters aware of their existence. Get names out there to the local pet stores. I know there was, at one point, a national list of rescues: revive it. Get involved with local colleges; loads of them have volunteer centers.

I just quoted this because I think it sums up the argument pretty succinctly.  The emotional cost of not supporting rescues far exceeds the financial costs for me.  

Human Abstract, where are you located if you dont mind me asking?

It is true that the rat mills won't know or care whether I buy a rat from them or not.  But I'll know.  And that matters.

About two hours north of Dallas.

If there are a few rescues in your area without websites, then why not offer to do it for them or find someone who can? I don't know of many rat rescues that DON'T have website (and I network with quite a lot of them), so your generalization is limited to a very small number when looking at the larger picture. Even those without websites have web space offered to them on Petfinder, and many do just fine with that.

The rescue database is a wonderful idea. Why not do it? Take your idea, and build a network. I'll be the first in line.

Everything else are things rescues DO. 95% of running a rescue is getting the word out, educating the public, holding events... Again... If rescues aren't doing these things perhaps they need more volunteers to step in and help.

Rescues are run by people just like you. Some are foster networks, and some are single people or families running out of their own home. We rely on the support and help from people like you. We are often very busy people outside of running our rescues, and even more busy running our rescue. We can't do it all, much as we'd like to. If you're noticing a lack of anything with a single rescue, or rescues in general, then it's a great opportunity to jump in and do something. I'd be nothing without my volunteers. We really can't exist without them.

Human Abstract, If you would like to adopt there are many rescues in texas...a lot that will help with transportation...(im from texas)....my mother is an ACO in texas and if you are serious about adopting i can get her to talk to some rescues and see if she can help you out...im sure my mom can even help for transport ...just PM me

Maybe if people would spend more then 20 minutes researching their new pet they would find out about rescues. It's not that hard to learn that you can rescue rats or to find rescues. I think I already said this, but I got my boys from halfway across the country, because I took the time to LOOK for rats and transport was already set up. Tons of people are willing to drive to get other peoples' rats to them. And honestly, if someone doesn't know that already, they should spend some more time reading about rats.

Most rescues have petfinder listings, too. So they ARE accessible.

Websites are a lot of work, and they cost money. We have a website, but keeping updated is hard. Just keeping our blog updated isn't always possible.

Besides my life (husband, house, school, job) I've got other pets, I've got rats needing meds, socialization, special feedings, plus routine care. Then when I do have some that need adopting I have to sort through applications, call landlords, arrange transport, actually do the transport. It's a lot of work. I don't even run a real rescue, I can't imagine how those who have rescues like CCR, MRR, Kim's, LMR, etc. get everything done. They are awe inspiring.

Right now, I'm actually in a no-pets apartment. They found out about my rabbit and were NOT happy. As my job has fallen through because of the economy, and my apartment plans have fallen through because of my job, adopting rats wouldn't be fair right now. If I ever get back to a place where I have the ability, I'd adopt--but right now, it wouldn't be fair. Though what rescues are you talking about? I know of one in Austin and one in Huston.

As to volunteering, again: I have no transportation. I'm not a web designer, and while at some point I'd love to volunteer, I'm just not in a place to do so right now.

Well, shoot, you rescuers better get off your asses and start doing some dang WORK! Not like you don't have hours upon hours left over to watch LOST and twiddle your thumbs after working your jobs, taking care of your families and all the rescues you take in, not to mention fundraising and doing local educational appearances. Because it's certainly not the INDIVIDUAL's responsibility to seek out and make ethical choices for themselves, NOOOOOO if one wants others to be ethical it's their responsibility to force it in their face and hand-hold their way to those choices.


And just let me say, how dare you.

Your sarcasm is unnecessary. I'm saying that if you want people to make ethical choices, show them how. Make yourself obvious. If you're going to say its the individual's responsibility, stop whining at people when they don't make the choice you want. Define a universal set of ethics for me, and then you can apply it to everyone on the board.

Why do you even have rats if you don't want to make their lives better, whether as individuals or a species? Animal "ownership" should be a privilege that stems from wanting to improve the life of that animal, not a right that allows you to be as lazy as you want about their origin or care.

No, I think the sarcasm was completely necessary.  If you found this forum, then you simply chose not to do the same research in finding a rescue near you.  Google is a fantastic thing and it takes the ignorance argument away.  If you read any of the threads on this board about petstores or rescues, of which there are many, you would know about the ethics of rat mills and pet stores that get their small animals from them.  Your implication that rescues, who have websites, who hold adoption fairs and whatnot aren't doing enough is simply wrong.  If you type "pet rat" into google, you get pages of information about rats, and on those pages there are plenty of mentions of responsible rat breeders, rat rescues and accurate rat care.

Ignorance of the truth doesn't make your mistakes okay.  And defending pet store rat acquisition over putting a tiny bit of effort into finding alternatives is simply disgusting.  You have the time and effort to argue that you can't find a rat rescue, but not the time and effort to google it?  Please....Who do you think you're kidding?

"You can't say that buying cruelty-free produces "matters to the lab animals that didn't suffer" but refute the same logic when its applied to feeder rats."

Yes, I can. Simple: by not buying animal tested products you are keeping animals out of labs.  By not buying rats in stores you are keeping rats out of mills. Your money isn't funding the companies that do such things. There is absolutely no hypocrisy in that.  The lab animals that aren't suffering in my example aren't suffering because they DO NOT exist.  Just as if rats weren't being bred in mills and making money for the mill owners, mills wouldn't exist... thus, no rats would be present to suffer.

It's all about doing the most good for the most critters.  Buying cruelty-free helps A LOT of animals.  Rescuing rats also helps a lot of animals by not tossing more money into the machine and making more rats be born and suffer as the ones before them have.

And I'm not saying that people ought to be perfect.  I'm not.
I'm saying people should CARE.  That they don't and can have the attitude you're showing... that what we do doesn't ultimately matter... makes me want to give up on the whole lot of the human race.  BUT some folks, like the folks in this post who are arguing the same points, give me a bit of hope.
We should all vote with our wallets.  That's what I'm saying. I'm not forcing anyone, just hoping like hell they will do it and do the research and learn and have an epiphany. Threads like this help educate.  

Melissa

I wasn't gonna get involved, but I have to say this.  How don't rescues make themselves available?  Spend 10 minutes on this board, and you can find them from coast to coast.  They have sites, they are active, will answer any questions, whether or not t