Tumors in females..does anyone neuter?

[JulesDoug]

I just wondered..I know in dogs if you spay the females they are less likely to get mammary tumors, I know rats are very different beasties but wondered if this may help the high risk of tumors?
I havent heard of females being 'done' is this op too tricky on our girlies..just curious.

By the way went back to the shop where the girls came from and told them they had got the sex and age of the girls wrong.  I was telling them so they could be more educated in future (went with pics to tell the difference)  I thought I would be ignored but this was far from the case..the manager even said if either of the girls were in trouble the company would foot the bill n take the babies. I said there is no way they would be given the babies with the risk of them being sold for feeders.  Manager totally understood and would stump up the bill for advertising and cage costs...I was pleasently amazed!!
Anyway I am rambling...
Jules Babs n Bonnie

[Louise]

I seem to think the incidence of tumors dropped significantly in spayed females - right down to 4% or something like that.   The only thing that would make me nervous was what risk was associated with the surgery, I don't know how common it is for females to be spayed.   I know when I read it, the statistic mad me stop and think, it was pretty dramatic in the ratties favour.  I'm sure someone will post some info on it.  Unfortunately I can't remember where I read it.  It was most likely on the rat fan club site as that's where I do most of my reading.

Nice to hear that the pet store was so responsive to you, there seem to be so many bad stores out there that when you come across a better/good one it's quite refreshing.

Good luck with your girls  

[Goosemoose]

ALL my girls are spayed. It costs about the same as having a tumor removed latter in life, much cheaper than getting 3 or 4 removed! Not only does it drop their chances of getting tumors from around 75% to 4 or 5% but it can greatly lengthen their life. Find a vet who is experienced in it. It is just as safe as getting a tumor removed. The worst I have seen is one of my girls swelled up in that area for a few days but it eventually went down. Here is the rat fan club article http://www.ratfanclub.org/spay.html

[Ali]

you're not taking them back, are you? You've got me panicking! BTW, it's illegal to sell live rats as feeders in the UK (officially, of course) - good job really, we don't have to go through so much anguish like our US pals when we go into pet shops.

Great news that the manager was so understanding though!

Out of interest, how old did he say the girls were, and how old do you think they are really?

Re the spays - yes, there is strong evidence that spaying in female rats does significantly reduce the incidence of tumours. Someone will probably be able to give you figures. I think I read that about 75% of females get tumours and this is reduced to about 25% in spayed girls (someone will correct me if I'm wrong!) - one of my does did, the other didn't (neither were spayed).

Some people really advocate it and others don't - you'll probably get some good advice about whether the benefits outweigh the risk of surgery etc but I can't really tell you much about it.

Kisses to the girlies!   (by the way, what colour are they?)

[JulesDoug]

 
No the girls are not going back lol!!  My days would never be the same!!  I just wanted them to be a little more careful as so many youngsters have rats as pets and it  would be very difficult for anyone to cope if they became over run.
I know the official stance in England is that they are not sold as food but when I was in the store there was a man buying a rat for that reason and the manager says she is sure it does happen.
Babs is white with a buff coloured head and two white spots that have only just appeared on her face and one buff spot on her back.  Bonnie is the same but she has a kinda buff wobbly line down her back.
I will post pics but I really havent a clue how!!
When I got the gals I was told 12 weeks the vet rekons they are 6/7 weeks now. They must have been to young to leave their mum. Ho hum.
Can I ask at what age would you spay the gals?I'm off to check the links.
Thanks
Jules Babs n Bonnie

[Ali]

Phew!!!

I know what you mean about the feeder rats - I'm sure it happens, I'm just glad we can kind of pretend it doesn't! (yep, the proverbial ostrich...!)

The girls sound gorgeous! I think Babs is what they call a capped/bareback, and Bonnie sounds like a hooded (same as Badger, except he's dark brown/white). Bless 'em, they've still got some growing to do if they're only 6 or 7 weeks! That was the age the boys were (we think) when I got them and they've doubled in size since then! (They're just over 4 months now - still small boys though, but their dad was a titch too).

Not sure what age girls can be spayed, but no doubt someone'll tell you! From what the others have said, it sounds a wise move if you've got a good vet (check they've done it before though). I spent a fortune on tumour-removal.

Ali

[Meghan]

One interesting thing I noticed when looking at a British site about rats was their somewhat different attitude about spaying to prevent tumors.  In the USA, many people reccomend it, but the British site suggested that surgery for spaying was generally complicated and risky, whereas tumor surgery was usually relativly simple.  
I don't know if this is related to the respective nationalities involved, but in human medicine, North Americans tend to be much more gung-ho for surgical solutions then their counter-parts across the ocean.  Not that that is wrong, but I think that its worthwile to concider if our aggressiveness is always best.

[JulesDoug]

  I have to be honest I thought it was very aggressive treatment for ones so small but then again having read the link it makes very convicing reading...I now feel in a real dilema. If I lost the girls in surgery I wouldn't forgive myself. I need more information I guess on the risks.
Whatever I decide I will have to wait until after Babs' illness has settled down.
JULES N THE GALS

[Paul]

Meghan's observation is spot on - there does seem to be a different attitude on either side of the Atlantic.
Debbie Ducommun highly recommends spaying.

(BTW, Doug will thank me for this as well, but do you have Debbie's book, Rat Health Care?)

I know of people here in the UK definitely don't agree with spaying.
And I believe the figures which are quoted that claim that a huge percentage of spayed rats don't develop tumours, is hotly disputed.

None of our four girls were spayed.

Paul

[Goosemoose]

I have had 5 females. The first one had cancerous tumors, after removing three (about $100 each) she finally had one that wove itself around her organs and we had to put her to sleep The second girl has had 3 tumors removed, including an ovarian which meant we had to remove her ueterus(okay I'm a guy who can't spell) anyways (total of $500). She is still alive after 3+ years and active. The other three have been spayed and no tumors to date. Once you have watched your babies suffer and die from tumors you will start to rethink your position, I have not heard any stories of rats dying from being spayed. Mine all came through great, just make sure you get a GOOD vet!

Goosemoose

[Leah]

Does anyone know if there's a time limit on getting the spays done? Say, if a 1 year old rat had a spay, would the results still be similar? I have been thinking about spaying my three girls who are 3 and 4 months old, so this was a great topic to find.

Thanks!

- Leah

[JulesDoug]

Oh dear Leah and everyone else whos interested I am even more confused...to spay or not to spay that is the question?
Paul you mentioned Debbies book (just dont mention it to Doug!!) I have seen a couple available on the net can people advise which one to get?This may explain some more.
has anyone lost their rattie girl due to spaying?
Jules n the gals

[Leah]

Jules, I am just as confused as you!

I think I'll go home tonight and read my Rat Health care book. This topic has pushed my brain into gear to really research this, although I don't think they can be spayed before 3 months anyhow. (Though I most certainly could be wrong...)

- Leah

[JulesDoug]

Anyone and everyone let Leah and I know what you think about spaying,this feels like a very big decision never thought I would even consider elective surgery for my ratties lol!!....Knew I shouls have got boys far less complicated although maybe a little bit basic LOL
Jules n the gals

[Goosemoose]

3 months is too young. I had 3 of my girls done at 6 months, though it is more of a size issuze. The vet will have an easier time once they have reached a decent size. Once of my girls was spayed at age 2. The longer you wait the more estrogen that is in the system, which is the cause of most tumors. The same is true with female dogs, and even humans. Though I doubt it will become commonplace in humans, getting a womans ueterus removed actually reduces the estrogen levels and reducing the risk of tumors, and I believe even some cancers. That is part of the reason this is so well studied in rats! Check out the RFC link I posted back to read up on it. One year is not too old. Please make sure to find a vet who has done many of these though! You want to find experienced people. My vet is in southern california about 45 east of LA in montclair. If anyone needs her info let me know.

[Ali]

Jules, it sounds like you've got yourself a good vet. I think both you and Leah  should write down the advice, figures, and different opinions you've got here and ask for your vet's opinion next time you go in.

To be honest, if I had girls again I don't know what I'd do. I know that in cats, dogs etc, female spaying is a much bigger, and more invasive op than for male neutering. I certainly wouldn't let a vet who's never spayed a rat use mine as a guinea pig.

On the other hand, the evidence is overwhelming that most females DO get tumours and that spaying can help considerably. If tumours arrive late in life it's not such an issue, if they get them young it's more tricky. Once a tumour is removed it's still very likely to return and you could be laying your girl open to lots of follow-up ops - but they are less invasive than a spay.

One of my girls got a tumour (which was removed and grew back), the other didn't. I guess it's just luck of the draw.

I'd really recommend that you talk to your vet. Their experience with female spays may sway your opinion one way or the other. In any case, you are right to wait until Babs is 100% well again - a good vet won't risk an op whilst there is any sign of respiratory infection.

[Leah]

Thanks so much, Goosemoose and Ali. (And Jules, it's so nice having someone with the same concerns to share with!) These are my first rats ever, so I'm a bit of a worried mother. I just want to make sure they stay as healthy as possible. That spay article by Debbie is very convincing. I will call my vet. He seems to be good with my guinea pigs, and he's seen one of my rats once (free check up since she came from the shelter) but I will make sure he's spayed before. I know I should be able to find a qualified vet (a plethora of vets in the area - big cities are nice at times!), but if anyone knows a good one in the East Bay/Oakland, CA area, I'd love to know. In any case, it will be a few months since two of the girls are just 3 months old, and the other only a few weeks older. Anyhow, thanks again, you experts are very helpful!