body language, need advice ASAP

[kimmyizme]

Oh boy, we had a pretty bad rat bite at the shelter this morning. A volunteer was trying to pet one of our rats (a very friendly rat!) I noticed the rat was pushing his rear end into her hand, like he was trying to avoid her hand with his head. Before I could say anything, she grabbed him, or tried to, and he quick turned around and latched on to her with his teeth. It was the worst rat bite I have ever seen. After the fact, I found out she had just applied hand lotion before she went to his cage. I am assuming he didn't like the smell of the lotion, or the smells of all the other animal she had on her hand and I think he was trying to tell her that when he refused to let her touch his head. Has anybody ever seen this type of behavior? Poor baby, he is very upset right now, I think he knows what he did and feels very stressed about the situation  . Now i have to convince people that he is really not a biter. Does everyone agree?

[kmw]

I agree.  The butt pushing is CLASSIC avoidance/aggressive behaviour.  As is tail wagging and fur puffing.

Some males, when they go through puberty, get hyper aggressive.  I had a boy do this.  He would puff his fur, stalk around like mad, and bite me - HARD - if he could smell the other boys on me.  How old is this boy?  

[kimmyizme]

The original owner told us that he is 6 months old. But I gotta say, he never showed any aggression before this woman bothered him this morning. He is usually VERY loving and social. I really think it was the lotion she had on her hands. Maybe???

[Jodi]

Yep, I also think it was the smell of the lotion, and he gave the woman the classic warning signal before he bit her. Turning their side or their butt toward you (usually along with puffing the fur) is exactly the way they tell you to back off. If she didn't know enough to only approach a rat with clean, odor-free hands, or how to read the signal she was getting, then maybe she shouldn't have been attempting to handle a ratty.

[SonyaFancifulRats]

Oh no!! Which rat was it??!

Badger does turn his butt toward me when I go to pet him, and stiffens up.  He has not made to bite though, and if I pick him up its from underneath.

Perhaps it was the smell of the other critters that scared the rat.. I doubt it would be the lotion, if anything he might have licked or nibbled at the sweet smell.  or maybe he is just ultra stressed at being in the shelter?

let us know what happens..

[SonyaFancifulRats]

Course, you could always test it by putting the lotion on your hand and trying to grab him...

Have you alwys washed your hands in between handling critters, probably you do as habit! so I still tend to wonder if she smelled like another animal..

[Jodi]

Aaahhh! Good thinking, Sonya! I hadn't even thought of the possibility that maybe she still had the scent of another animal on her!  

[Ali]

does tailwagging indicate displeasure then? (as kmw mentioned).

Roger will sit on my lap, or next to me, and wag his tail if I scratch just above it. I thought he liked it....... maybe not!

[kmw]

The original owner told us that he is 6 months old. But I gotta say, he never showed any aggression before this woman bothered him this morning. He is usually VERY loving and social. I really think it was the lotion she had on her hands. Maybe???

I don't think it was the lotion.  I'd put my guess on scent of another animal - rat, cat, dog, etc.  Or a combination of scent and stress from being in the shelter.  

[kimmyizme]

I don't think she washed her hands and she had just finished cleaning the cats and I think she may have walked some dogs too. I don't think I will put any lotion on MY hands though!  LOL  Sonya, this is the new rat that came in the day you adopted yours, he is 6 months old and was very well taken care of and extremely social.
I am happy to report that one of our staff members is going to adopt him! I think she plans on having him neutered.
The other 3 adults from the "basement" have gone to our wildlife rehabilitator. Don't worry, he doesn't use them as feeders. He uses them for education show and tell and then he finds them homes.
We still have "Saturday and Sunday" the last 2 toddlers. I will be posting a picture of them as soon as we get batteries for the camera
Thanks to everyone for all te advice. I love this place!

[kmw]

does tailwagging indicate displeasure then? (as kmw mentioned).

Roger will sit on my lap, or next to me, and wag his tail if I scratch just above it. I thought he liked it....... maybe not!

I've always read that tail wagging is a signal of aggression.  I've seen it during the intros with Tuck and Reilly, right before they become a screaming rat ball.  However, Tuck did it when he was introduced to Max - he'd run under Max's big belly, and wag his tail!  He's also done it a few times when I've been scritching his ears.  So, I don't know what to think    Maybe the context is important in trying to decide what it means?

[SonyaFancifulRats]

Oh good, I'm glad he is getting a second chance!
 Hope Dave can do something with the adult males...I think its good that he would take them! They certainly have potential, but I think Badger is enough challenge for me right now.  I e mailed you regarding neutering..I am hoping it would help him live with the other rats.

Gosh, I hope someone takes those beautiful babies soon, Sky is the sweetest thing and I'm sure his siblings are the same..

[Goosemoose]

I saw it was the lotion too! Our ratties won't acknowledge my girlfriend if she has lotion on! They don't even like me as much when I have just showed hah. I think they know our scents, and like to keep it that way!

[Ali]

no-one can ever say these rats don't have their own personalities! My rats have always gone mad if I have handcream or facecream on - their favourite plaything is cotton wool I've used to take my makeup off!

[Christy]

I've always read that tail wagging is a signal of aggression.  

I've also only seen tail wagging during aggression, usually when doing intros!

[scout]

I've always read that tail wagging is a signal of aggression.

I have just recently observed one of my rats doing it in response to being scratched. He was completely relaxed, enjoying every minute of his luxurious human grooming. I would compare it more to a cat switching it's tail when being petted.

The aggressive tail wagging I've seen is more pronounced and vigorous in this same rat. It's clearly different, as is the rest of his behavior (aggressive: puffed up, arched back, sideways or butt first motion).

[Christy]

That's interesting Scout, you are the first person I've heard of that witnessed tail wagging in  a positive way.  Learn something new everyday!  

[Grace Jr]

That's interesting Scout, you are the first person I've heard of that witnessed tail wagging in  a positive way.  Learn something new everyday!  

I don't think of it any different than a cat wagging his tail.  Joey will wag his tail when he is content, and when he is upset, but the upset wag is stiffer and jerkier.  Same as a rat who is wagging their tail when they are upset.

Kimmy!!!!  Tell me more about Saturday and Sunday!  lol  By any chance are they female?  Or neutered males?    Course, I'd have to convince Gram to let me get two more to begin with...  And I'd have to build a temp cage for quarantine too...  Hmmm...  Maybe I could just borrow Mom's rabbit cage...  Or, I could use it.  I was the one who paid for it after all...  lol  Anyway, more info?  You can email it to me if you want.

[Mandarb]

It may be what your rat is used too.  as a vet student and part time nurse my rats get to smell an awful lot of funny smells on my hands, an dI use a lot of lotion to recover after scrubbing from surgery.  Maybe my girls are used to it?

[SonyaFancifulRats]

 Grace,

Sat and Sunday are two males probably about 8 weeks old, they are the brothers of my baby blue hooded, Sky ( formerly Friday).  He is a complete sweetie and very calm for a "stray" type rat, already lets me give tummy kisses.  These two boys are hooded, and we are guessing platinum, it is hard to tell the color as most I have only seen online.  They are truly beautiful and an unusual color, almost blue but with a beige tinge to it, I'd really like to take one of them but that would leave one behind , which isn't fair.  I am going to talk with Animal Hospital of South Gorham about neutering my aggressive one, Badger ( he is NOT from the same litter), maybe you could get these two done there.  Sky is very healthy with no sneezing or weezing, etc.  He was at teh shelter a week and here since Saturday.  HTH till Kim can get in touch with you!

[Jodi]

I've made the same observations as Scout about the tail wagging. My boys seem to have different "wags" to indicate different things, if that makes sense.   I've seen them do a very rapid, snake-like wag that seemed to indicate aggression (in at least one case, it came right before a pounce on a dominance challenger), although I think it could also be used sometimes in rough, macho play situations, too. But the one I've seen during a good old session of scritching and rubbing was more like the way a dog wags its tail. Chewie used to do it all the time when I'd scratch and pet him. He'd hunker down onto the couch, close his eyes, and his tail would waggle back and forth like a happy little puppydog.

[WS]

does tailwagging indicate displeasure then? (as kmw mentioned).

Roger will sit on my lap, or next to me, and wag his tail if I scratch just above it. I thought he liked it....... maybe not!

I've always read that tail wagging is a signal of aggression.  I've seen it during the intros with Tuck and Reilly, right before they become a screaming rat ball.  However, Tuck did it when he was introduced to Max - he'd run under Max's big belly, and wag his tail!  He's also done it a few times when I've been scritching his ears.  So, I don't know what to think    Maybe the context is important in trying to decide what it means?

TAIL WAGGING:

Tail wagging usually means intense displeasure if the tail is stiff and whips up and down or side to side, but rats sometimes wiggle their tails when they are getting petted in a sweet spot

[Tara]

After reading some of this stuff,  I got to wondering...

How can you tell if a hairless rattie is "puffed up?"  Does he get goosebumps?

[WS]

I definitely agree that it was probably the smell of the other animals and ignorance of the "leave me alone" communication of the butt.... she probably made a fast grab for him?   The lotion may have been unfamiliar but I'd bet that it was animals and not lotion that provoked the bite.  Let him turn around and have a sniff and he should be OK with the smell of lotion. -