When to urge vet on myco?

[JuliaDC]

Poor Cha Cha has had symptomatic myco since he was a little thing (sneezing fits, occasionally "squeaky"). The vet has seen him a number of times but is conservative on antibiotics for myco, preferring to treat it only when she can detect lung symptoms like wheezing, or head congestion. She did put him on Bactrim once for wheezing that she was concerned could be pneumonia.

As the boys approach their first birthday, both are showing increased myco symptoms ("chirping" sounds for Cha Cha, first signs of sneezing in Lindy). I assume this is because there immune systems are less able to find it off as they mature?

I have an appointment this coming week to have them checked out. My question is, does the vet's approach to treatment sound reasonable, or is there some "magic" point where I should be more assertive about asking for treatment?

[Dearpie]

Personally, I'd print out articles on myco and the drug doseage chart and take it with.  Do you have a copy of Deb's Rat Health Care book??  Take that in and make him look at the info.  Perhaps switch vets???  I would have been a lot more aggressive a long time ago.    Good luck!!!

[JuliaDC]

I do have both of Deb's books, and in Rats! she says, "Treatment with antibiotics is necessary when wheezing or other severe symptoms occur." I guess what my vet believes is that in the absence of such symptoms, treating with antibiotics will build resistance, and those drugs will not be as effective if the disease turns more serious. The last time she saw Cha Cha, she said his sinuses sounded clear, but she did hear a little wheezing in one lung, which is why she started the Bactrim.

The vet is a rat owner who treats many rats, and though I'm in no way able to judge her medical qualifications, she knows a lot about rat diet, takes her time on exams, monitors the boys' weight, and gives out Debbie's pamphlets. Nonetheless, it's quite possible she doesn't have a clue what she's talking about on the myco issue. But before I overrule her and either demand medication or go to another vet, I want to make sure this is the case. Dearpie, I've got one vote for you on "start the meds"--is this what others think as well?

[sugarfoxx]

I would REMIND the vet that many times when they hear NO SOUNDS IN THE LUNGS this does not always mean that they are clear. Major mistake. Sometimes lungs that are full and no air moves through them are mistaken for being clear when actually they are full.  Big big HUGE error vets make with our rats. An x-ray is the best way.

I have been through it so many times. Very painful memories. I HATE myco.
It ruined my little Cheese's lungs.  Every time the vet would listen to him he would say ALL CLEAR! HE IS FINE!   HA!  I found a REAL VET that said nope.......his lungs sound clear because no air is moving through at all he is so full. X-rays confirmed it plus showed the damage done from having myco untreated for as long as he did.
I will never forget what that exotic vet told me ever since. So when I swear my rats are sick and the vet says they sound fine I insist on an x-ray and only one time out of probably 10 times were they clear. ONLY ONCE! That  is scary. That means the other 9 times my rats would have been untreated. WE found the pnemonia etc....only by x-ray and not just simply by listening to them.

Sorry for repeating and going on and on...I get so hyped up on this subject because I have been there in your shoes a million times over.
good luck!

[kim]

I would REMIND the vet that many times when they hear NO SOUNDS IN THE LUNGS this does not always mean that they are clear. Major mistake. Sometimes lungs that are full and no air moves through them are mistaken for being clear when actually they are full.  Big big HUGE error vets make with our rats. An x-ray is the best way.

a rat with any effusion (i am not sure what you mean by "full" - a rat with chronic myco has bronchiectasis, which means enlarged airways and may have inflammatory reactions, lymphoid hyperplasia, etc) does indeed have lung sounds -depending on the type of effusion and its location.  in fact, almost all animals have SOME lung sound s- its determining if you hear rales and crackles, etc that make your diagnosis.  I am not sure what you mean by "full" - full of what? Not all vets make this "error", so please, don't say that they do. Radiographs are not always necessary and not always diagnostic. Many of us on the board have treated many infections without resorting to radiographs - in fact, radiographs are usually only necessary in end stage, or a rat not responding to treatment, or if you want to rule out tumors, etc.

[sugarfoxx]

Kim

Uh.......show me where I said that ALL vets make this error.  As you can see I did not edit my post and you did ask me NOT to say that ALL vets make this error so please outline where I said that?

 I happen to know that when my rats lungs were totally full of WHATEVER it is they are full of (I dont know everything and therefore dont use medical terms LOL) I was told he had nothing wrong when the poor guy had pnemonia in both lungs. The second vet I went to discovered this the same day so it wasnt like they just happened to get bad in a few hours.
 
 My rat happened to benefit from x rays and that was the only way to properly diagnose his lung problems.

I do respect your knowledge in this field. IN fact I have asked for your opinion several times in my posts, most recently when my poor Hairy was dying and the vet said there are no safe pain meds for rats which I knew was incorrect.
But I will argue the fact that when my rat was given a clean bill of health his lungs were full of whatever? it is they are full of and had pnemonia......so this is from my experiences. Also I was told by someone that really knows alot about rats who I wont mention cause I know she wont want me too, but she also told me to watch out for this.
There are vets out there that claim to take care of rats but really dont know much at all about them. I sadly have run into several of them in the past few years. Maybe its this part of the country who knows!
Once Louie had his first case of myco. He was so sick. He was dying. They kept him for five days at the vets. Now mind you, this was my first rat and I had no clue about anything......first trip to the vet for him too.  They didnt even give him oxygen the entire time because he said how did I expect an oxygen mask to fit on a rats face? Um....well what about putting him in a little tank with it being piped in? DUH
Yes I have had many problems. Its a miracle Louie made it. Know how he made it?
I found the dosage chart and found out about Baytril and doxy combo. I printed all the info I could find on this subject and brought it to him.
When they sent me home he was still dehydrated. They had not even tried to give him injections under the skin to rehydrate him. Now mind you I had no idea about anything that you do to treat this but found out later.
I found the exotic vet and brought Louie in that same day I got him out of the other vets.  He is the one that said his lungs were full and no air was moving yet it appeared he was clear.
About 5 months later same thing happened to Cheese. The ER vet said he didnt know why he couldnt breathe cause his lungs were clear.  
They were full of pnemonia.  This is what prompted my post. My experiences. Both were very bad.

Thats all I have to say. My opinion.... take it for what its worth. But I didnt say ALL  VETS

[JuliaDC]

I really appreciate both your replies. I know a lot of this is out beyond the edge of the map, especially for vets who make most of their money off dogs and cats, so getting your personal experiences and advice means more to me than I can say.

Since Cha Cha is symptomatic (frequent sneezing, hiccuping) I would hope that she would prescribe something for him regardless of what his lungs sound like. I will definitely question her more closely on under what circumstances she would treat the myco, not just the secondary infection, and why that shouldn't be now. If not....well, there are no RMCA recommended vets in my area, but there are lots of options, so I am not afraid to pull the plug with that vet.

[sugarfoxx]

Good luck!  I need to hear some good news so please let me know how it all goes!

kisses to the rattie!

[JuliaDC]

Thanks, Sugar, I will do that. First thing in the morning I'm calling the vet to move the appointment up.

After all you've been through, it's very generous of you to find it in your heart to be concerned about another rattie.

[JuliaDC]

Just got back from the vet. She put Cha Cha on Baytril (wheezing) and Lindy on Bactrim as a precautionary measure. The dose of Baytril seems to low (.2 ml/day for a 1.5 pound rat), so I'll talk to the regular rat vet about that when she's back in the office on Wednesday. That vet also has some experience with the Baytril/doxy combo, so I'll talk to her about that as well.

Thanks again for all your help.