I'm so angry at my vet... what can I do now?

[Yresim]

Okay, so a new update on Ennoia.  Actually, it is kind of old, since I found out about it when I took her to the vet on Monday of last week.  However, I haven't really talked about it because I have been too busy thinking/reading/flustering/crying (over this & over family matters).

So, Mocha did not have a virus.  She had a bacterial infection.  Most likely, this was my own misunderstanding, so I don't blame him for it at all (I was very upset when I was talking to him).  Besides, it does not change my plan of action.  

The part that I am angry about... okay, I can do this...

When he said he didn't know what it was, I somehow understood that as it did not fit into any know disease.  The reason he actually doesn't know what it was is because they didn't check.   :shocked:

When Mocha had died, he suggested an autopsy to be able to treat anything that Ennoia might (still) have.  I thought that was reasonable.  I told him that my main concern was whether or not it was contagious, because I wanted to get her some new playmates.  Of course, I wanted to know what it was so that we could get her treated.  But I didn't explicitly say that because I thought he was already going to do that (wasn't that the whole point?).  

Anyway, somehow it ended up happening more like this:
1.  Examine body.
2.  Check to see if whatever she is carrying was contagious.
3.  Dispose of body.

So now Mocha's body is gone, so there is no way to run further tests.  And that was the key to knowing what Ennoia has/had & how to treat it!  So there may be some known treatment for my baby, but he threw out the evidence!!!   :sad:

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

When I "knew" that there was nothing I could do for my baby, I could accept that.  But now I don't know anymore.  Maybe there is something.  But there's no way for me to find out because the evidence is gone.  

The vet tells me that the only real way to test if/what she has at this point is to fill her lungs with fluid, and then to remove said fluid & look for the bacteria in that fluid.  Not something I want to put my rat through.  But if it means that she will get all better...  I don't know.  

There is a disease out there (I forget what it is called, something with a p... I have it written down at home) that can cause this, and that has a non-apparent stage, and an obvious stage, and focuses in the liver/lungs/heart.  However, as far as I know, she may have just had myco!  Which means I may be keeping my poor lonely baby separate for NOTHING!

Does anyone have any suggestions?  Is there anything I can do at this late point?  Should I switch vets?  Should I have them do this test?

My biggest concerns at this point are:
1.  She is miserable alone & I don't want to make her miserable for nothing
2.  I don't want to make another rattie sick with something uncurable, but I don't know if this is uncurable (or even if the other rattie already has it)
3.  I want to know what it is, but the test sounds dangerous... I would hate to kill her just trying to find out what it is & treat her

I feel like my vet has done me (and Ennoia) a great disservice at this point.  For the first time in 10 years, I am thinking about switching vets.

Please... any advice you might have would be helpful.  I'm pulling my hair out over this.

[SonyaFancifulRats]

Well, if he knows it was a bacterial infection, can't you just try different antibiotics if Ennoia is sick?  If she isn't sick, couldn't you wait a month and get new rats?  Guess I missed some of the story...

Sorry he didn't check to see WHAT bacteria it was...I don't know how he would know how contagious it was without knowing WHAT it was??!

And I personally wouldn't have that test run on a rat of mine.. has he ever done that on a rat?  It sounds horrible...maybe others can shed more light on that..

[Paul]

We're sorry to hear about poor Mocha.

I spoke with our vet a couple of weeks ago about tests for our Phoebe and the only one that he said might give us information sounds very similar to the one you mention.
It involves squirting saline solution down the windpipe and immediately drawing it out by suction using a needle inserted through the windpipe and then a culture is grown.
(Yep, sounds pretty extreme, doesn't it?)
Our vet's opinion is, although the procedure is available, he does not like it at all.
He feels there are too many dangers and is not convinced that the potential benefit is worth the risks involved.

Paul

[scout]

flood her lungs (a living rat, right?) and take a culture???

I don't know, but that sounds more like drowning than anything else. I'd switch vets, pronto. Where do you live, maybe we can recommend a vet to you? Also, you might consider calling or emailing Debbie D to see what experience she has with your mystery illness. She's probably seen more sick rats than your vet has. Good luck!

[Sabrina]

Ugh... I'd definitely switch vets too.  I forget exactly which  part of Northern California you live in, but if you are anywhere near Los Altos, I HIGHLY recommend Dr. Derenzi at the Adobe Animal Hospital.  If you want an address or further details, just PM (IM?) me.

I'm really sorry to hear about Ennoia, and I really, really hope she gets better.  Keep us all updated.

Much love,
Sabrina

[Yresim]

Well, if he knows it was a bacterial infection, can't you just try different antibiotics if Ennoia is sick?  If she isn't sick, couldn't you wait a month and get new rats?  Guess I missed some of the story...

The problem is that we don't even know if Ennoia has it.  Whatever it was appears to have 2 (dormant/carrier & active) stages, so there is no easy way to know whether or not she has it.  The the only way I could know for certain would be to either:
1.  Run this test
or
2.  Introduce her to a whole bunch of rats & see if any of them die.

Both options seem pretty extreme to me.  

My vet actually didn't recommend the test.  He disrecommended it, but said it was the only way to know.  He thinks I should just keep her alone for the rest of her life.  

The problem I'm having is that she's miserable.  I'm at work 9 hours/day, and sleeping 8 hours/day, which only leaves 7 hours/day that I can give her company.  With 2 rats, this is not a problem, but when she's all alone...  its a different story.  

So on the one hand, I hate to see her this miserable if she doesn't have to be.  On the other hand, I don't want to expose other ratties to an illness if she has it and it is not myco.

I just don't know what to do at this point.  I want to know what is going on, but I don't want to drown my rat!!!!  Every time I think about this, I burst into tears.  

I just don't understand why/how my vet botched the autopsy thing so badly.  Was it my fault for telling him that I wanted to know if it was contagious?  Ick.

[Alex M.]

First, let me say how sorry I am that you are going through this.  I know how difficult and confusing it can be trying to talk with a busy vet when you need their help, misunderstandings and even errors can definitely occur.  Your last post asked rhetorically if it was your fault that the error occured, and I sincerely doubt that.  Even good vets (and doctors for that matter) seem to become detached and only pay 1/2 attention when they are busy, and he likely didn't really listen to every thing you said.

I wouldn't blame you a bit for looking for a new vet, although if you've been seeing this one for 10 years he may be worth sticking with, only you can decide that.

Please don't take this the wrong way.  Your messages were very emphatic that Ennoia is absolutly, tragically miserable in her single living arrangement, but are you sure she's that bad off?  Are you sure she is that miserable alone?  Is she eating and active and coming out at playtime?  I've had to separate a rat from the others for weeks at a time due to injuries or illness, and I feel so bad for them that they seem really depressed to me.  But they still play and beg for food and mostly sleep just like normal, they just need any extra attention that can be given to them.

I know you're busy and that you want the best for Ennoia, I just wanted to add that I believe it is really possible to give her a fulfilling life if she lives by herself.  If there is a way to work out introducting her to playmates that is acceptable for you, go for it.  But if you find that there aren't any options for this that you can live with, don't beat yourself up for keeping her by herself.  It too bad more rats can't be as lucky as Ennoia is and have someone who is as concerned about their well-being as you are.

[Yresim]

Per some very wise advice, I got a copy of the pathology report.  I cannot figure out how/why my vet decided that Mocha was contagious.  

It sounds to me like what happened was that she got leukemia which had no symptoms, but which caused her to be immunosuppressed, and a secondary bacterial infection was able to get hold of her and kill her off.  Direct cause of death appears to have been pneumonia, but the pathologist seems to indicate that the leukemia was the REAL cause.


Oh, heck, here's the report:

HISTORY:
Rat treated for dyspnea over last few months but died.  Mass present in inguinal mammary gland.  Lungs consolidated with multiple white masses throughout.  Similar masses in liver.  Mammary mass resembled abscess.

SPECIMEN:
Necropsy tissues: lung, liver, mammary mass.

MICROSCOPIC DESCRIPTION:
Not requested.

DIAGNOSIS:
1.  Liver - Extensive leukemic infiltration.
2.  Liver - Multifocal hepatic necrosis, with abcessation.
3.  Lung - Severe, multifocal, necrotizing bacterial pneumonia.
4.  Mammary mass - Mammary fibroadenoma.

COMMENT:
Although there is severe necrotizing inflammatory process in both the lungs and liver, the most important underlying change is extensive infiltration of the hepatic parenchyma by pleomorphic neoplastic round cells that infiltrate portal and parenchymal areas of the liver.  The pattern is most suggestive of tumor of leukoeytic origin (i.e., leukemia or myeloproliferative disease) and I suspect there was also bone marrow involvement.  Some rat strains are predisposed to leukemias of the large granular lymphocyte series.  The extensive neoplastic infiltration within the liver has compromised the animal and predisposed to secondary bacterial infection, with dissemination bacterial abscesses in the lung and liver.  The mammary mass is a typical benign fibroadenoma that is extremely common in the rat.  


My current beliefs/plan of action:
I believe that it is probably safe to get new companions for my baby.  However, I want to be responsible/safe.  Therefore, I plan to take Ennoia (and the pathology report) over to the Adobe clinic.  I would like a second opinion & a clean bill of health.  

I will also talk to my vet and try to determine where/why he got the idea that she was contagious & that Ennoia has it & that I shouldn't get another rat.

I do not plan to change vets.  However, I think this particular situation may be outside his area of expertise.

[Marybelle]

I would be worried if your vet is giving you wrong information, especially if it isn't his area of expertise.  Maybe you should think about changing vets, although it may be dependant on the answers he gives you.  It's hard to know what goes on in someone else's head.  Hopefully he'll give you a  straight-forward answer, and it wasn't something as stupid as "I don't know, and the rat will only live a couple years anyway, it won't hurt to keep her alone until she goes."  

Good luck, and keeping fingers crossed that you'll be able to get more kids!

[ruthiechan]

Wow.
I'm so sorry all the crap is happening to you.
Oy veh.
I'll send a prayer your way.
I don't really have much more to add unless you want a couple more vet references.

[litletori]

I know this is a really old post but what she went through with her deceased ratty is the same thing that just happened to my coco. Right down to the spots in her lungs and immuno suprression that led to her death from pnuemonia.

The process of saline in the lungs (it may be a bit diff. than it was then) isn't as horrible as it sounds. A rat is anesthetized, and then a very small amount of fluid in flushed in and then sucked back out in like two seconds. It's very quick and it's only done in one lung, not both. I would recommend this if-

You have a wonderful vet who loves rats and is experienced
and if you have been treating your ratty and he/she is not responding to meds. Also, you want to make sure ahead of time that you can get test results back quickly, sick ratties usually don't have a lot of time to wait.

The rattie is sedated for a very short period of time, this is good because the longer the surgery, the greater the risk (so my vet tells me).

You usually know when your rattie is running out of options, tried several meds with no response as well as nebulizing. At this point this procedure is an option to find out what excatly is in their lungs and how to treat it, or if it's untreatable.

Yes it should be a last resort, but make sure you have enough time to get the results so you can pursue treatment if possible.

Just make sure you trust your vet and ask alot of questions - they are paid plenty to answer any and all questions we may have.

Anyway, just thought if anyone else had heard of this and was unsure, my coco had the procedure done without any complications, and we got results and this prevented her from suffering any longer than she had to.

Food for thought!

Good luck with your ratties!

[DolciLady]

So, what did this test tell the vet?  Was he able to prescribe the proper treatment?  I'd like more details on what happened after the test and how Coco fared, please.  Interesting subject, I'd never heard of this procedure before.

Robiin

[Kati33]

The procedure/test your vet is talking about is called a Transtracheal Wash, its done often in other animals (we did another version- an orotracheal wash- in a gazelle at the zoo). I would think in an animal as small as rat it would be hard to go transtracheal, and easier to go orotracheal (through the mouth).