I always switch out the dog food I use when I make up each batch of their dry food mix to give variety and add additional nutrients that one formula may be missing.  The last batch I used Innova Senior and this time I'm thinking of switching to this vegetarian dog food.  I do think rats should have some meat in their diets occaisonally and plan to add a handful or so of my dogs regular kibble to the mix as a treat.  But what do you all think of this food.  It's the only vegtarian food I've found that is not loaded with corn, corn gluten meal, or wheat based fillers.  If I wanted that I'd just stick with lab blocks.  So here are the ingredients.  What do you all think?


Pet Guard Organic Vegetarian Dog Food

Ingredients:
Organic quinoa, organic oat meal, organic ground barley, organic brown rice, organic dried eggs, organic sunflower oil, organic apples, organic peas, organic carrots, organic potatoes, organic flaxseed, organic amaranth, organic kelp, organic cranberries, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, calcium ascorbate, (vitamin C), yucca schidigera extract, choline chloride, vitamin A acetate, d-alpha tocopherol, vitamin D supplement, riboflavin supplement, inositol, niacin, calcium pantothenate, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, zinc amino acid chelate, calcium amino chelate, iron amino acid chelate, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), manganese amino acid chelate, copper amino acid chelate, cobalt amino acid chelate, sodium selenite. Store in a cool, dry place, protect from moisture.

Nutrition Facts:
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein 16.0% Min
Crude Fat 9.0% Min
Crude Fiber 7.0% Max
Moisture 12.0% Max
*Vitamin C 500mg/kg Min
Vitamin E 250 I.U./kg Min
*Fatty Acids (omega 3) 0.8% Min
Fatty Acids (omega 6) 4.2% Min
*Not recommended as an essential nutrient in the AAFCO Nutrient Profile.

I wouldn't use it, because your rats might not eat it! I won some vegetarian dog treats in a pet show once, and I tried to give them to my rats. They refused to eat them! Also I would worry that changing your rats staple too much might cause upset stomachs. Generally when you switch foods it's recommended to slowly add a bit more of the new food so they can get used to it.

For what it's worth, I use Wysong senior with my rats dry mix, and a 16$ bag last about a month for my 19 rats.

Hmm, so maybe I should just stick with the Innova then.  I was just trying to add some variety to their diet.  Actually I may go back to the Wellness Senior since they seemed to like that more than the Innova.  I just heard that Innova was better quality but they don't seem to like it as much.  It's always the last thing left in the bowl...well that and the non-Kashi puffed grains (the store was out of Kashi at the time so I got the regular kind..they hate it  ).  I guess I see Kim's point about adding more grains in addition to the ingredients of the dry mix.

And my boys get tons of fresh foods in addition to dog food and a dry mix.  I make a fresh mix of various vegetables and fruits that I freeze in double ziploc bags and defrost as needed each day.  It's probably slightly more than 1/2 drymix/dog food and the other 1/2 is the fresh foods.   The dog food only makes up about 1/4 of the dry mix.  I posted the whole diet a while ago on this forum.  I was also planning on throwing a handfull or so of my dogs Timberwolf into the dry mix as a treat for them.  I usually do that. 

Oh, and I'm not forcing my beliefs on my animals.  I'm not even a vegetarian.  I was just wanting opinions on this food since I try to give them a new dog food every 3-4 months with each new batch of foods.  They still would get a good source of animal protein about twice a week as usual. 

OK, back to the drawing board to decide.   

Yeah, I don't agree with that at all.  I think it's maybe *possible* for rats to be healthy on a vegan or vegetarian diet since their needs are so similar to humans but no way for a normal dog or cat.  I still think that ideally rats should have a little bit of animal protein in their diet, not too much but a little.  I just try to give them a good variety of human grade food and fresh whole foods.  I also add lots of foods high in the 4 nutirents that rats require in much higher amounts that humans.  I hope I'm doing OK by my little guys.  They look great, are healthy, and happy so far.  But I'm always up to suggestions to improve their nutrition.

Actually, alot of companies offer a variety of different meat bases in their foods. Duck, beef, fish are all that I've seen at work. They're a bit more expensive than the better quality foods, but they do exist. So even using that as an excuse to put your values on your animals is a bit thin.

Oh, yes, there are some pets that do require a vegetarian diet. I didn't mean to imply they were non existant. Just that alot of people coming in ask if we carry vegetarian dog/cat food because their pet is allergic to chicken or lamb. If I point out the other meat diets or even just a better quality food, they generally say they're vegetarian, why can't their pet be. Or something about killing Bambi and Thumper. That's usually the point I let someone else take over, heh.

I became a vegetarian for 3 years for all the wrong reasons, then went vegan for 4 years for some pretty good ones. I've since come back to being an omnivore, and I've got my own self righteous opinions and morals. I'm a big believer of not forcing them on other people, though. I could climb on a soap box just as big as their's, but it wouldn't solve anything.

And I do believe it's z/d that carries the duck.. Duck and sweet potato if I remember right..

/ hijack

No, it translates to "our bodies are designed to digest and utilize nutrients found in vegetables AND meat." And if you want to cut meat out of your diet, you have to supplement to get all those nutrients from other places.

z/d is totally hydrolyzed protein that is non-allergenic.

d/d has a fish and a duck version.

i wouldnt feed either but...

if you want a limited protein diet, i would use the IVD diets first.

The fact that some large animals get white muscle disease from lack of Vit E and/or Se in their diets, does not mean that in other animals that the same thing occurs (Which is does not), or that the two are the same thing (which is what you said).

The fact remains, the two are NOT interchangeable and are distinct compounds.

This was never about the lack of Selenium or Vitamin E, but about the toxicity of it. Both are highly toxic in large amounts, and at least one is fat-soluble and doesn't flush from the system quickly. My concern was that a diet forumlated for dogs that specifically mentions higher amounts of Selenium AND Vitamin E might not be suitable for rats.

You are right in that my initial wording was off, and should have been better phrased. I apologize for that. But acting as though the two have no significant nutritional correlation is also wrong. And yes, the two can be used interchangably in a good number of cases. Including:

Necrotic liver degeneration in the rat can be treated with either Selenium or Vitamin E.

*sigh* I mentioned, in a very general sort of way, that diseases brought on by deficiency in Selenium or Vit E could be treated with either as a way of pointing out their strong association. Then you brought up white muscle disease for some reason I'm still not sure of.


This is definitely NOT what I was taught during my dietary courses. We were taught that any fat-soluble vitamin taken in large amount or for an extended period of time could be dangerous due to the fact that it remains in the body for a long time afterwards.

I brought up white muscle disease as it is the disease that is a resultant of Vit E and/or Se deficiency in livestock - which is what you said you addressed in the class you took, right? Fact remains, you brought up deficiency, not I. I simply responded.

Jules, yes that is true of the other fat soluble vitamins. However, I will say it again - we really don't see any toxicity at all with people who take extremely high amounts of vitamin E.

If you don't believe me -

http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section1/chapter3/3g.jsp
(incidentally 1000 mg of vitamin E is approx 1500 IU, and approx 5000% RDA)

http://dietary-supplements.info.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamine.asp#h7