Food, Make your own Mix or buy from a Petshop?

[clae]

I am currently owned, with my partner, by 8 rats.
And these boys sure know how to eat.
A Kilogram of Lab blocks is around 15 dollars and barely lasts the week.
Just so we know, I can afford it, but what I'm curious of is if it is feasible to go out and buy things to mix up and feed them to maybe save money and give them some variety.
The other week we brought Oatmeal, Tomato, Rice, Peas, Beansprouts, Weetbix, Rice Cakes, CornChips, Rabbit Pellets, and Apples.
The pellets were a complete disaster, but for 1.20 a kilo, it was worth a try.
I don't think those things alone are a good enough diet, so I'm wondering if anyone is able to fill me in with what they feed their guys?
Thanks for the comments.

[Suebee]

This is what I feed my guys:

http://www.ratsrule.com/diet.html

A lot of people do variations on it, but a quality lab block really is the only truly complete diet.

What brand of lab blocks are you using? They're not all created equal...

[Ligeia]

A lot of us here use Suebee's rat diet. 


Someone else posted the same thing while I was typing.  Obviously, its very popular.

[Suebee]

Someone else? LOL!

[Ligeia]

Yeah, I didn't really look at who posted.  I just saw that it had been posted and thought, "See, I knew I wouldn't be the only one!"

[ajzq]

I don't really follow any receipe, but I do incorporate items from Suebee's diet.  I generally feed them twice a day, using the following foods:

Dog food (good quality - high in protein)
wheat puffs (cereal)
pasta (red, green plain - whatever I have on hand)
fresh fruit (banana, grapes, apples, pears, etc.)
fresh/cooked veggies (beans, lettuce, carrots, brocoli, cauliflower, peas, potatoes)
rice
barley, oats (whatever is on hand)
seeds (pumpkin, sunflower - but small amounts)

I have tried lab blocks but found that they weren't getten eaten so I stopped buying them.  Plus, I prefer to give all natural, unprocessed foods, same as I eat/or should eat.  I believe that if they won't eat it why buy it!

I also give treats like meat, bread, yogurt drops, whatever we are eating and they show an interest in.  They love vegetable beef soup with barley and lentals!  I have to drain the liquid though due to high salt content 

[shadowfx78]

clae what brand of lab block do u buy?  I can get Mazuri block for 2 dollars for 2 pounds or about a kilo.  It took my boys quite a while to get used to the lab block but they accept them readily now.

[Heather]

If you are in the US you can buy Harlan lab blocks, the highest quality, for $1/lb. One rat will eat 1 lb a month and flat rate shipping is $8.10. Up to 15 lbs can fit in a flatrate box.

[mandycoot]

I'm pretty sure clae is in Australia.

I use pretty much only human food with my rats. I have the Suebee's mix, which you can adapt with whatever healthy cereals and other things that you have over there, and I also cook for them three times a day when I make my own meals. You can give them baby cereal with soya milk, soya yogurt, rattie salads and veggies, pasta, couscous, whatever!

Also, rabbit pellets are alfalfa, which is indigestible to rats. Many people use them as bedding.

[kmw]

I'd do a homemix and add the lab blocks to it.  That way you know they're getting all their nutritional needs from the lab blocks, but you can add more goodies with the mix, and stretch the blocks. 

I assume you already have the links to the Dapper Rat which is Australian based?  http://www.dapper.com.au/links.htm

[Dork123]

I think my girls really like the variety of their Suebee mix....  Plus, I feel better giving them something I know they love rather than a store-bought mix that they just sorta deal with. 

[Bratratbeds]

Dog food (good quality - high in protein)

Umm I would be careful with the high protein as it will cause skin troubles...unless its being fed to a lactating Mom who need the extra.  If I remember correctly ( and I know one of ya'll will jump in here and correct me if needed) all they need is about 18% of their diet to be protein which is not a lot.

[Dork123]

No, you're right, Bratratbeds.  Usually senior dog food formulas are the only ones I can find with a low enough percentage of protein, and even then it can be tough to find the right amount.  I think the one I currently use has 18%. 

[Bratratbeds]

This was posted a few weeks ago on another rat list I am on and I dug it out thinking it was rather interesting and relevant to this discussion... it is a response (from Chuck Benton, Ph.D. Nutritionist/Technical Services for Harlan) to an email from some so I have removed that person's name and info.. Oh and "Dux" is one of his colleagues not the person who emailed them to start with.  It is a bit long but enlightening as it were.

"Thank you for your email.  I am one of the nutritionists at Harlan Teklad.  I am not a salesperson and you will not get sales spin from me.  You are correct about the quality of our diets.  We manufacture our diets using the same formulas each and every time.  We have standard operating procedures that we follow with each and every production.  We test our ingredients when they arrive to our production facilities and we audit our suppliers.  So you can rest assured that when you feed our diets to your pets, that you are feeding a consistent and quality diet.  Much of what Dux said is correct although some of the facts are not quite right or need clarification.  First, Harlan Teklad manufactures diets specifically for laboratory animals.  Our diets were never designed with the pet food industry in mind.  We have never promoted our diets for pet mice and rats nor do we know much about this industry.  In fact, until recently I was not aware of how well known our products were in the pet mouse and rat industry.  Upon receiving quite a few emails from rat and mouse enthusiasts such as yourself, I did a little research on-line and was shocked at how many websites existed for rat and mouse enthusiasts and of how well known our products are.  It was indeed an eye opener for me.  So when Dux writes that our diets were not designed with the enthusiast in mind she is correct.  However, we have many diets for mice and rats with different levels of nutrition, designed for different purposes and it is not accurate to paint them all with a broad brush as was done.  We have over 22 diets for mice and rats.  Some were formulated for breeding animals, some for general purpose (breeding and non-breeding), and others for rodents on long term (2 year) studies.  First, one has to understand that many of these diets were formulated 15-20+ years ago when there was very little known about the nutritional requirements of mice and rats.  To ensure that nutritional deficiencies did not occur the "more is better" approach was followed where diets were formulated to obtain nutrient levels that were known to prevent deficiency signs.  Over-nutrition was not viewed as much of a concern compared to malnutrition, especially when feeding mice and rats on short studies.  Thus many traditional rodent diets contain more protein that is required.  Excessive protein can cause kidney damage in aging mice and rats.  So excessive dietary protein can be a problem.  Most lab animal diets like commercial diets for pigs and chickens are supplemented with vitamins and minerals to prevent deficiencies.  Most food for human consumption is supplemented with the same vitamins.  The supplemental vitamins do not harm the animal.  They are not inherently bad as Dux would suggest.

Today we know much more about the nutritional requirements of mice and rats than be did when most diets were formulated.  A breeding rat or mouse only needs about 18% crude protein and a non-breeding adult rat only needs about 9% crude protein or perhaps less.  Yet most of our traditional diets contain 22-24% protein.  In 2000 we launched a new range of diets which we called our Global Diets because they are available in both the U.S. and Europe.  The Global Rodent Diets are 2014, 2016, 2018, and 2019.  When these diets were formulated the present knowledge of the nutrient requirements of mice and rats was taken into consideration.  Diet 2014 was formulated for non-breeding rodents on long-term studies (2 year).  This diet has a low protein content of only 14%.  Excess protein can cause kidney damage in aging mice and rats.  Mice and rats that are not actively breeding do not require as much protein so it is appropriate to feed this diet to rodents on long-term studies rather than diets that contain 19-24% protein.  Diet 2016 was designed quite honestly for customers who were afraid to feed a diet with only 14% protein.  It is difficult to get customers who have been feeding 19-24% protein diets to switch to 14% protein but they might warm up to 16% protein, thus 2016.  Diets 2018 and 2019 were designed for breeding mice and rats.  These animals require more protein and energy to support gestation and most importantly lactation.  Diet 2018 contains 18% protein and 6% fat.  Diet 2019 contains 19% protein and 9% fat.  Increasing protein potentially can harm the kidneys of aging mice and rats but it does not make mice and rats fat.  In fact, it has a slight negative effect on weight and fat composition (remember the Atkins diet).  Energy intake by the mouse or rat controls body weight and fat deposition.  Diets 2014 and 2016 contain about 4% fat while diets 2018 and 2019 contain about 6% fat and 9% fat respectively.  So diets 2018 and 2019 contain slightly more energy than 2014 and 2016.  Mice and rats fed diets 2014 or 2016 may put on less weight than mice and rats fed 2018 and 2019 over the long term.  But it is not the protein content that is responsible.  It is the increase in fat and thus the increase in energy content of the diet that is responsible for weight gain and increase fat deposition.

What are my suggestions when it comes to maximizing the life expectancy of your mouse or rat?  Well, Dux hit this one right on the head.  Excess weight gain is the enemy of longevity in mice and rats as it is in humans and all mammals.  Excessive body weight will accelerate the onset of the diseases associated with old age which for many mice and rats is cancer.  Long-term studies with mice and rats show that when the animals are restricted to 2/3 of what they would normally eat when allowed unlimited access to food that they live longer and the diseases associated with old age occur at a later age.  If I had pet rats or mice, I would feed them diet 2014.  It has a low level of protein compared to all other diets.  Remember excess protein can cause kidney damage in aging mice and rats.  Diet 2014 contains enough fat to meet the requirements for essential fatty acids but less fat than most other diets so the energy content is lower than most other diets as well.  This diet was designed to be fed to mice and rats on long-term 2-year studies.  Essentially the aims of the researcher feeding the diet to their research animals are closely aligned with the aims of the rat or mouse enthusiast.  Avoid high calorie supplements such as nuts, chips and other junk foods which while tasty, encourage excessive weight gain.  The mice and rats may still get fat on 2014 as they age.  In general mammals given unlimited access to food increase their weight as they age.  You can seek to restrict the diet if you wish or you can supplement their diet with high fiber foods such as fruits and vegetables.  High fiber foods will fill their stomachs making them feel full but contributing little to their energy intake.  However, make sure that in feeding these high fiber supplements that you do not displace the diet by more than 33%.  The animal is relying on the diet to meet its nutrient requirements.  The supplements are for enrichment and an attempt to reduce excessive weight gain.  Also, place items in the cage which decrease boredom.  If I put you in a room with nothing to do, but with food always available you are going to spend a great deal of time eating and drinking too. 

In closing I just want to remind you of something that you already know.  Mice and rats have a short life expectancy.  By controlling body weight gain through energy restriction you are adding at best a few weeks or months on to their lives.  But, the quality of their lives may vastly improve which I would say is what is truly important.  Also, if you are breeding I would recommend 2018.  Do not feed 2014 to breeding mice and rats.  It is too low in protein and will lead to deficiency.

Sincerely,
Chuck Benton, Ph.D.                                       
Nutritionist/Technical Services

[shadowfx78]

Bratratbeds, very interesting letter do you mind if i show it around on some other forums i go to?

[EARPS Indy]

I use and recommend Oxbow Regal Rat.  I use about 80% Regal Rat and 20% healthy human foods (whole wheat breads, crackers..., fresh fruits and veggies, etc...)

www.oxbowhay.com

[Bratratbeds]

Bratratbeds, very interesting letter do you mind if i show it around on some other forums i go to?

I would think it would be OK as it was originally posted on a semi public forum and from the tone of the letter it would lead me to think it was important information that would both promote better health and a better understanding of which Harlan to feed.