*Final Update*- Nipping more-need support.

[Phalaeo]

*Read to last post for update*


Hi-
Got two new boys who I am instantly in love with, but have a question about something the woman at the pet store told me.

She said that the one bites (draws blood) if you have your hand in the cage re-arranging, cleaning, etc., but once he is out, he has never so much as mouthed anyone.  He doesn't struggle when you pull him out like most rats do, but I'm kind of freaked about how to handle this. 

Usually, when I go to pick a rat up, I'll let my hand hang out in the tank for a few seconds so that I may get sniffed properly before doing the "ratty grab".  I also asked how they respond to being given treats by hand and she said fine.  I gave them both a treat tonight and there was no "desperate grabbing", like my girls do.  They grab a treat like they haven't been fed in a week. 

I've never had an issue like this before...any ideas on why he does this?  Think he'll ever stop, or do I just have to work around it?  They were in a 20 gallon at the store- right now they're in a 55 until I get a wire cage.

[Rosies_Mom]

I have taken a chapter from the Dog Whisperer on handling our ratties in and out of their cage. I am "pack leader". The cage is mine, the food is mine, the toys are mine, the hammocks are mine. They may enjoy them all at their leisure and pleasure. When my hand goes in the cage, it is my territory. If they lurch toward my hand, I do not move. The longer I leave my hand there next to them the more calm they get.

Our two new boys were nippers when we first looked at them. They were used to having hands flying into the cage and out of the cage. Once they learned that a nip was not going to chase my hand away, they submitted to it. Now they even move toward it to be picked up. The hand means food, goodies, snuggles and playtime.

[lilspaz68]

Has your new boy even attempted a nip inside his home yet?  Do you know how he was handled before at the petstore?  They may have just lunged in and grabbed him, whereas you are announcing your presence.  Just watch his body language and if you are that nervous wear some gloves and see how he reacts to them in his cage. 

[JR1030]

I have a boy just like that.  He's better now than he was, thanks to trust training, but he HATES when I reach in to get him, or even to do other things.  He has even bitten me when I had my hand in his cage petting his cagemate.  But, he is totally fine once he's out.  So I usually just tempt him out with treats, and then pick him up (he's fine with that).  Or, I hold some sort of box or interesting thing next to the door, and he climbs out into the box on his own.  Like I said, he's totally fine once he's out...cuddles, goes shirt diving, no biting at all.  Although he did take a tiny nibble on my fingernail, but I think he was just trying to help me out with my manicure.   

[Phalaeo]

Has your new boy even attempted a nip inside his home yet?  Do you know how he was handled before at the petstore?  They may have just lunged in and grabbed him, whereas you are announcing your presence.  Just watch his body language and if you are that nervous wear some gloves and see how he reacts to them in his cage. 

Nope- no nipping at home...yet.  But I have only had them for 18 hours, and I haven't given them too much of a chance.  They are BIG bucks, and although I've been mouthed and nibbled on a few times by all my rats, I am leery about experimenting with a buck that may draw blood.  But, I guess that's the only way to learn.

Note- When they were handled at the pet store, they were handled frequently.  The one let me flip him on his back and give his belly little pbbbts. They are the kings of squish---My instinct is telling me that it was something about the size of the cage and not liking the tank being cleaned every day--gotta figure too that the girl who cleans the tanks does the birds in the morning and moves on to small animals- he may not have liked the smell. 

I think that I have the new mom jitters! 
Plus, I've never adopted an adult rat before--with ratlets, I can usually "EEEK" them out of the nibbling habit at a young age.

[Phalaeo]

OK....Buck Nibbles Hurt!!

Got bit this evening.  Yowza.  I had him out alone after giving all of them an evening lick of blackberry yogurt off of a spoon in the cages.  I took him out fifteen min. after "administering" yogurt.  He was calm, was licking me- turned around and bit my knuckle!
I had finished off the yogurt by myself, and had eaten some grapes before handling him.  I probably should have washed my hands, although I didn't think that I had anything interesting on them.  It was a small bite- I think that he only drew blood by accident.  I EEEEEEK'ed him and put him right back in the cage and turned the light off.

I guess I'll have to keep some band-aids around and post updates. 

P.S.= never had blood drawn by a rat...do I need a tetanus shot?

[JR1030]

My boy has drawn blood many a time.  I hadn't thought of getting a tetanus shot, but I seem ok.  At least, in that regard. 
One time, he bit so deeply into my knuckle that his teeth actually got stuck in my finger, so we were locked in mortal combat for what seemed forever!  My hand was in the cage in a weird position, so I couldn't get my other hand in there to get him off.  Ouch!

[Phalaeo]

Ok, this is the second nip.  Tonight I brought him and his brother out, thinking that I may not get nipped if both of them were out.  I washed my hands beforehand, not using any soap, because my soap is apple scented.  Within five minutes of sniffing and investigating...NIP. 
I EEEEEEEEKed twice loudly and put them both back in the cage.  A little skin break, not as much blood as last night.  I don't want to give them treats, because I'm afraid now that they'll associate my hand with food.  I'm actually quite panicky-what do I do?  They're mine-I fell instantly in love with them, and if I return them to the store (egads!) they'll go as feeders.  I've never had to deal with this before, how do I teach them not to bite?
It definitely isn't a vicious bite, more of a territory testing bite.  I was bitten badly by a hammy when I was little and I was afraid of rodents for a long time.  I'm more mature now and can deal, but if I'm reach into the tank and he turns to sniff my hand, I don't want to pull it back.  I don't want him to know that I'm a little afraid, and I can't let him continue to bite.

Help.

[Lise]

I don't have much to say about the biting, as I'm not sure.

I have only had a biter once.  And she was biting out of fear.  We put on work gloves to handle her, until she got used to being handled.  But it doesn't sound like your guy is biting out of fear.

As for the tetanus shot, IMO it is a good idea to get one.  You only need to get a tetanus shot every 10 years, and it is one of those things that is better safe than sorry.  Anytime you are bitten by an animal there is a risk (though its always a minor one).

[Phalaeo]

It doesn't seem like fear- maybe apprehension--he also bit at the button on my sweater.

Are there any body cues that I am missing?  Perhaps it's because I just took them out and plunked them right on my lap?

Shouldn't be the smell from the cat- there were SPCA cats in the store, plus, I washed.

Get them neutered?
What about this "rat teenager" puberty that I read about? (They are an estimated 6 mos.)
Where do I learn more about trust training? (I'll Google, but would appreciate any favourite links)

[mandycoot]

I have a boy that was a rescue from a neglectful situation. Though he's wonderfully socialized now, he still just loves to bite my lips--I have the marks to prove it! Of course I don't help by seeing how many times I can annoy him by kissing his head and nose before he can grab me...

Anyways, he'll be neutered for rat-on-rat aggression soon, and I've been wondering if it's going to do anything about his nipping behavior. Though I don't know the answer, your question about the hormonal stage and neutering reminded me, and I'll let you know if it subsides at all after the neuter.

[Phalaeo]

Ok, decided to spend some "by the cage" time without taking them out.  I gave them both a YUMMY treat ) Bac-n-cheese dog biscuit), which the one took and ran away and the other kept trying to bypass the treat to smell my hand.  Surprisingly, he ignored the YUMMY treat and jumped up on the edge of the tank!  I scritched him and gently put him back, but he kept jumping up and trying to get in my lap.  I figured this is a good sign, as he was very confident about where he wants to go. 

I need to get some food colouring, as they are nearly identical.  That way I can take "nice  guy" out while I work with "Nip hand Man". 
Twins...    

[javakittie]

Before he bites you, is he doing anything that looks like aggression? Does he do a sideways waddle? Does his fur poof up? Does he stare at you from the corner of one eye, with his ears trained directly at you? Does he crouch down and sort of huddle in on himself?

Those are all things I've learned with my rescue girl, Tully. When she does any one of those, I back off and leave her alone. I'm assuming that boys can't be all that different.. While your boy may have been handled alot at the petstore, doesn't mean it was the good kind of handling, either. I know my girls get upset if I just reach in and grab them.

Anyroad! Tully does test bites. While she was never really handled, and your boy was, it does sound alot like what she does. We'll be bopping along during playtime and she'll be just fine, then I'll get distracted with my book and she'll come over and 'test' my finger. It's usually not that bad of a bite, more of a deep scratch than anything. She's not doing it to be aggressive or because she's scared, she just doesn't seem to know what my hand is all about. It's just this weird pink thing attached to her spoonful of papaya..    The gloves have worked wonders with her, because instead of squealing with pain and rushing to stop the bleeding, I can just eep at her and push my finger at her. If you're really uncomfy with the idea of getting bit, just grab a pair of garden gloves. I have a pair meant to use with rose bushes, so it has heavy duty rubber-like stuff all over it. I washed mine then wore them off and on for a day so they would smell like me when she went to investigate them.

If he continues to nip, inside the cage and out, then I would look into a neuter. He is the right age for any hormonal boy stuff to start, and this may be just the beginning of it.

Heh, if you need to see what an angry rat looks like, let me know. I'm doing cage swaps today for intros. I'll get a good pic.

[JR1030]

Heh, if you need to see what an angry rat looks like, let me know. I'm doing cage swaps today for intros. I'll get a good pic.

I want to see that!   

[Phalaeo]

Got bit HARD this morning.  I put my hands in the cage and they waddle over, then swing their heads around really quickly.  If I leave my hand there for any amount of time, it's WHOMP.  But then he hops up on the side of the cage if I sit next to the cage and talk to them, like he wants to see me.  So I reach up and put him gently in my lap, giving him time to wander around, give little scritches, and then WHOMP! again!
This morning's did not break the skin, but it was some serious pounds per square inch, because my finger is still throbbing.  They are giving me no signs that they are going to do this. And they show no signs of aggression towards each other. No tumbling, wrestling, squeeking, etc.

I'm now at work, very anxious, because I feel that I may not be able to deal with this situation.  Honestly, I wanted two boys for squishy companionship, not as a rehab case, and they totally did not act like this at the store.  I am seriously bummed out.

I don't want this experience to negatively affect my feelings about rat ownership.  As I mentioned previously, I was bitten a lot by a little russian hammy when young, and I was quite phobic for a long time.  I got rats because they generally don't bite and to this day I will not put my hands near any hammy.  I am not a very good candidate for rehabbing an animal with aggression issues and I am aware of that.

Any other input is greatly appreciated - unfortunately, though, I get the feeling that I will not be able to keep these two guys.

[lilspaz68]

Ahhh a sneaky biter.  They walk up to you slowly, ignore the treat to sniff your fingers and wham!  No puffed up fur, no regular aggression signs.  Its learned behaviour to make you go away.  You have to be aware of where he is at all times, and just not let him have access to your hands.  He doesn't know you at all.  Once he realizes he isn't allowed to bite you (use gloves if you need to) and he gets used to you, and trust builds he should slow down or stop. Might take awhile tho.  Yeah I would mark one of your rats since they need different handling and you can work with the non-biter without worrying.
Treats on a spoon is a start like Javakittie is doing with Tully.

[JR1030]

I feel your pain...literally.  My one boy Tango was quite the biter...to the extent that I advertised on craigslist for a new home for him...and requested an experienced rat owner, which I am not!  I was getting bitten so badly and so often that I just didn't want him around.  Turns out I was making it worse by accident by feeding him through the bars, and I was so scared of getting bitten that I never took him out of the cage.  Thankfully, I got some great advice (which included joining this forum), and I've been able to help him enough that he's a pretty good companion for me now, too (not just his ratty friend).  Look up trust training on the search bar, or ask someone who knows...I started out with smashed banana on a spoon...and NO more treats through the bars.  I did a lot of letting him come to the door for banana on a spoon, and then letting him go right back in without touching him.  Then gradually started giving him touches on the back when he came all the way out for banana (avoiding the mouth!), but not picking him up.  Now I can pick him up and cuddle him, and he's lovely.  I still don't reach into the cage to get him, though, because I'm pretty sure he'll get me.  Something about the cage.  Good luck...I hope you can get them to come around, since there's lots of help here.  But, if you can't, you also know there are some great people who can help you re-home them.   

[Phalaeo]

This afternoon I finally, and with much regret, took the boys back to the store.  Everything turned out alright because the girl who takes care of the rats decided to take them home.  It turned out (it seems) that the rats only like her.  She held bitey and I held non-bitey as we talked about how bitey was acting for over twenty minutes.  He didn't bite her once.  When she had to hand him over to another employee to get my new boys out, bitey chomped on the other employee and continued to chomp while she looked for a place to set him down.  I felt so bad for her.  Then the first employee picked him up, put him to her lips and he gave her kisses!  So I have three young new baby boys, and the bitey bros. are rehomed.  Finit.

[JR1030]

CongRATS on your new babies!  It sounds like you did the right thing.  Pics please! 

[Phalaeo]

I had serious reservations, but as I settle into the evening, I feel better about my decisions.

You should see the one bub- Fawn hooded, ruby eyed rex....he's losing a bit of fuzz on his back- was wondering if he's double and I'll end up with a nekkid?

Will post pics as soon as I can get the camera from work.