Fancy rat vs. Feeder rats?

[diabolique]

I ditto what Leonakitty said, Shelagh.

Everyone here knows that you are an angel. 

[August]

This thread is just rediculas. From "is it more acceptable for me to buy a feeder or a 'fancy' rat from a petstore?" to a battle of who is morally superior! Live and let live people. Buy feeders or don't, have babies or don't, drive a car or don't, eat meat or don't, rescue or don't, build a website or don't, on and on and on. I personally do not think this is even an issue of whether or not people are aware of rescues, maybe some people *choose* to have rats from the feeder tank or the local petstore. Is it anyone else's place to judge them? No. I have been keeping rats for 10 years, up until about 2 years ago I had NO IDEA there were breeders or rescues in my area. When I became aware I chose to get babies from an ethical breeder and to help needy rats in my area (most of which are petshop rescues, which the majority of you do not seem to think "measure up" to rats from a private rat rescue). I didn't do this because anyone told me to or gave me a guilt trip on how it was morally wrong to buy rats from petshops, I did it because it was right for me. Do not judge people for their decisions, everyone has the right to make the choice that feels right to them.
Now everyone go and snuggle your ratties, wherever they happen to have came from. 

[OldsGal]

When I became aware I chose to get babies from an ethical breeder and to help needy rats in my area (most of which are petshop rescues, which the majority of you do not seem to think "measure up" to rats from a private rat rescue).

We do not think that pet store rats don't measure up to rescue rats......What matters is that we do not want our hard earned dollar go to line the pockets of the feeder breeders.  Most would feel much more comfortable that they know their money goes to support rescues and those cast away rats.

Here is also a big difference in pet stores vs rescues.  Pet stores don't give one single hoot if the people they are selling their animals to have done any research.  They don't give a hoot if the people buying the animals have the proper caging, food, bedding etc.  They don't give a hoot if these people are capable of long term commitment to these animals or if they are a spur of the moment whim.

A rescue screens adopters and educates adopters to make sure that as much as they possibly can the animals they place are going to forever homes.  Rescues are working to keep animals in homes for the long term and that they are in good homes.

When I think of feeder breeders I think of mean evil snarling toothless men chain smoking and hocking luggies.  I can't imagine handing them even a single dime of my money.  But when I think of people like Shelagh, or Kimmiekins, or Kimmizmie or anyone else who rescues I feel much more comfortable handing over the adoption fees plus a lot more.  Again a huge difference.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

In an Asian country they are convincing pregnant women to come live in a group home for women to give birth to their babies.  They are then tricking these women into signing over their babies for adoption or lying to the women and telling them their babies died.  They are then putting their babies up for adoption under false pretenses.  Most of these babies are malnourished and have health issues such as scabies, lice and other very treatable conditions.  If you knew all of these facts would you choose to adopt one of these babies or a baby from a legitimate adoption agency that was run with all of the best care and legally done.

Just yet another way to look at it.  Again no difference.

[slynx]

This thread is just rediculas. From "is it more acceptable for me to buy a feeder or a 'fancy' rat from a petstore?" to a battle of who is morally superior! Live and let live people. Buy feeders or don't, have babies or don't, drive a car or don't, eat meat or don't, rescue or don't, build a website or don't, on and on and on. I personally do not think this is even an issue of whether or not people are aware of rescues, maybe some people *choose* to have rats from the feeder tank or the local petstore. Is it anyone else's place to judge them? No.

As human beings, we have powers of judgement and decision making.  It certainly doesn't always mean there is only one right answer to any question, but I do actually find it ridiculous that anyone would suggest that all answers/behaviors are equal.  To use your examples, if I decide to drive a car when I could walk, I'm choosing to use a non-renewable resource (oil) and contribute to particle and gaseous emissions (which in turn, contribute to individual and environmental health damage).  If I choose to eat meat when I could healthily be vegetarian, I'm choosing to contribute to environmental degradation and (depending on your source of meat) animal mistreatment.  Every day, we can decide to be kind or not, to waste resources or not, to behave dangerously or not, and on and on.  You say "live and let live," but I say that our decisions have consequences.  Of course we can exercise our ability to judge the worth of those decisions! 

When I decide to obtain my rats from a shelter or rescue, I am exercising my ability to choose.  I am aware that the consequences of that action are the transfer of a nominal fee to an organization that tries to help homeless animals, and space for that organization to fill with another homeless rat.  If I were to purchase my rats from a pet store, I would be aware that the consequences of my actions are that the parents (and possibly siblings, cousins, uncles, and aunts) of the animals that I purchase will spend their lives in racks or drawers, bearing litter after litter until they die, without adequate medical care, attention, or stimulation.  Were I to purchase a pet store rat, I would be aware that the consequences of my choice are that another rat, exactly like mine except for the chance of our meeting, would be in the same situation because of my purchase.

To me, those are very different decisions, with very different consequences for a species we all love.  I don't agree with you that we just shouldn't judge...why wouldn't I exercise my judgement, which so clearly tells me that one option hurts rats, and one doesn't?  For me, owning a pet carries responsibility as well as pleasure, and my responsibility extends to doing as little harm as possible to my own pets and to all of those animals I cannot personally take care of.

Personally, I think we all have different resources and abilities.  If you have the information to made an educated decision (for example, if you understand the industry that produces petstore rats), then you have the ability to weigh the consequences of your actions.  Some people, as others have pointed out, do not yet have the information/education to make that decision, and will support rat mills out of ignorance.  Other people, as has been pointed out, have that information but don't know how to locate a rat outside of a petstore.  Other people have that information, but choose to support the rat mill industry anyway.  It is clear that the participants in this discussion would probably judge those individuals differently.  Personally, I couldn't look my rats in the eyes if I knew that I was willing to let other rats, exactly like them, suffer in order for my to obtain my pleasure in rat companionship.

I agree with you, August, and others on this thread who said that none of us is perfect.  We are all doing the best we can with a limited set of resources.  But just because we aren't perfect doesn't mean we can't try to do the best we can.  And when it comes to animal companionship, we might consider that our best ought to include responsibility at every stage.  For all my rats do for me, I feel that this is the least of what I can try to provide in return.

[ratlets]

Wait wait... here's my "I told you so."

[August]

OldsGal, I'm not sure if I was clear in my post or not but I am not lining ANYONE'S pocket. I do not pay a cent for the rats I take on from petshops, all 4 of my current Petco rescues had been turned in by their owners (they're honest about the pasts of the rescues, they freely tell you which ones were handed in and which ones are being adopted out due to illness or having been there for months without being sold) and my other current petstore rescue is a hairless who did not sell after 6 months, I was given he and his brother who recently passed at no charge.
What I meant when I said that people do not seem to think petshop rescues "measure up" I was meaning as rescues, not the rats themselves. It's been a long day and I can't find the words to explain it better than that. I could be wrong, but I'm very much getting the feeling from this thread that anyone who chooses to get their rats through other avenues - whatever they may be - does not rate as high as those that go to rescues.
Anyway, I think it's great what people who run rescues are doing for needy rats, and people who adopt from them too. I'm not disputing that, just pointing out that it's not the *only* way. It has been years since I've bought a rat from a petshop, I probably will never do it again, but I do not fault those who do.

Slynx, I was using examples that people had argued earlier in this thread, not necessarily things that I personally feel are acceptable one way or the other. I am vegan, do rescue and go to ethical breeders, bike or use public transport when at all possible - but those are all decisions that I have made FOR MYSELF. I do not try to place my values on others, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and free to choose how to live their life. It is not my job to educate or to be the moral compass to those around me, I know I certainly do not appreciate when people attempt to place their values on me so why would I want to do that that others? 
The point of my initial post was that there is no reason that this topic has turned into an attack. I was trying to diffuse things a bit, clearly I was unsuccessful!

[slynx]

LOL!  I'm at the end of a long day too, and it's obviously an emotionally loaded debate for many of us.  Well of course it is, since it involves our rats and we're all on this board in the first place due to our rat obsession!

Although I think there is sometimes a tendency to 'rank' the places we get our rats (a formerly abused rescue is better than a rescue baby is better than an owner re-home is better than...or whatever), I also think we're all a little over sensitive about it.  Being in a forum filled with people trying to take perfect care of our rats tends to make many of us a little defensive.  Most people arguing against pet store purchases would probably say that getting a rat in any way that doesn't support the pet store/rat mill industry is excellent.  At least, that's what I think.  None of my rats came from rat rescues -- two were CL 'free to a good home' and four were from the county shelter.  They're all second-hand rats, and my acquisition of them gave no support to rat mills, crappy breeders, crappy pet stores, or anything else I'd feel squeamish about, so I'm happy with the ethical ramifications. 

I agree with you that we are all free to choose how to live our lives.  I just disagree that we shouldn't judge (and educate, argue, or otherwise engage) people who do otherwise.  The reason I feel this way is that our decisions have consequences for others besides myself.  If I choose to drive drunk, I hope other people would judge me and lecture me and otherwise try to prevent me from making those decisions.  If I choose to give my money to a pet store that sells live animals, I think other people are perfectly free to inform me of the consequences of my actions, and form negative opinions of me if I choose to give my money to them anyway.  And so on

When I read through this thread, I don't see it as an attack.  I do see some regretable posts and some, er, flimsy ideas, but I think mostly it's a passionate argument over something that, as rat owners, we probably ought to care about.  If it makes people feel defensive or belittled, I am sorry, but if those feelings help people think twice before buying the next cute pet store rat...well, maybe that's a start.  Every single one of us has made plenty of mistakes in our lives, but I guess I hope that we can learn from them and do better next time.  More information, even if it is sometimes information that makes us feel bad, is a useful tool for making better decisions.  And if we didn't go around using that information to judge external events, we wouldn't manage to change the things that are wrong in the world.  But I do agree with you that we have to start with ourselves first, and just try to do the best we can.

[OldsGal]

Slynx hit the nail on the head....I think 99.9% of us don't care where you get your rat from so long as it is not senidng your money to the feeder mills which means not buying from 95% of the pet stores out there today.  If you got your rats from the pet store but they were 2nd hand turn ins then PERFECT!  You rescued a rat.  If you got your rat off of CL then again perfect you rescued a rat (so long as it wasn't from a feeder breeder).  If you got your rat from a reputable breeder who breeds for the right reasons and has done all of the necessary homework it takes to be a reputable breeder then you are a very lucky person!  I and let me state that again I don't judge any rat as being better then another nor do I rank rats in order of importance.  They are all important and they all need love. 

I do not deny that it breaks my heart to see a tank full of feeder rats and makes me want to save them all.  But I just remember that by me encouraging the behaviour by rewarding it with my money then there will just be more and more and more to save.  It will never end.  Yes I know it is a much bigger problem then just myself not buying them.  But if we can educate people and get the word out there and convince everyone in the rat community to stop it then it will make a dent in these feeder breeders pockets and then we can hope it will put some of them out of business.....As we know that is what capitalism is...Supply and Demand....Demand goes down.....businesses go out of business......Trust me I think the rat community vs herp community buying these rats has to be about 50/50 split. 

Staci

PS:  Didn't I say a few posts back I wasn't going to get involved in this debate...What in the heck am I doing here?  LOL

[UNIROK]

I do not deny that it breaks my heart to see a tank full of feeder rats and makes me want to save them all.  But I just remember that by me encouraging the behaviour by rewarding it with my money then there will just be more and more and more to save.  It will never end.  Yes I know it is a much bigger problem then just myself not buying them.  But if we can educate people and get the word out there and convince everyone in the rat community to stop it then it will make a dent in these feeder breeders pockets and then we can hope it will put some of them out of business.....

So basically you are saying I should not buy feeder rats from stores like PETCO? If I didnt but these rats someone else would and they would just become food. I cant save them all but at least I can do my best to save a few every now and then. My original question was just wondering if there was a real difference and feeder rats vs. fancy rats but it appears there is not. Anyway I am planning on getting more involved with the rescue scene and people be aware if you ever have a rat in need of a emergency home I am only an emails distance away.


Christopher

[MsMagpie]

1. I don't post on CL either. Mostly because I've never had any good come of it, but also because I don't really want people constantly trying to dump rats on me. I don't want the level of exposure CL offers.

2. It really can make a difference if you choose not to buy from a petstore. Petco just went through all the store's records and decided to pull a huge amount of animals from most stores. They decided that it wasn't worth carrying what they couldn't sell. It's only a matter of time before other stores follow suit, it's just good business.

[JR1030]

So basically you are saying I should not buy feeder rats from stores like PETCO? If I didnt but these rats someone else would and they would just become food. I cant save them all but at least I can do my best to save a few every now and then.

Well, yes, that's what a lot of us are saying.  The trouble is that people's snakes still need to eat, and they'll produce more and more feeders because they're being bought.  Yes, the particular one or two rats you buy will not be fed to snakes, but the ones they order to replace them will be.  So you may be "saving" your two, but causing two or three or four more to be born and fed to snakes.  People here really want folks to consider the big picture.  Is it ok to save two rats if you're causing suffering for several more?  And at the same time actually paying the people causing the suffering?  I, personally, think not.

[TheChicagoCrew]

 Hm so typical. A post such as this would seem to warrant a debate that would last for five pages and have crap thrown and spattered everywhere on the walls.

 Be wise as to your decisions in purchasing pet store animals, supporting rescue work, and posting on public forums that have rules and sleep deprived moderators at the keyboard.

 This thread is going nowhere. I am locking it.

 And remember.. education is the key. Rats would not be sold as live snake food if every snake owner were educated on the pros of feeding F/T. Some snakes must eat live. 99%, though, can do with F/T. It is those people we need to be educating. And not just for the sake of the rats, but for the safety of the reptiles as well. Instead of buying that $5 rat and putting another 3-4 in its place, spend that $5 on either helping a rescue or having flyers made up on the importance of feeding F/T to reptiles!

-Melina