Sudden death of 2 rats

[diabolique]

Hi everyone --

The student from whom I got my rats came to me this morning and told me that she woke up this morning to find her two male rats dead in their cage. The older of the two is perhaps 1.5 years old, and the younger is only about 5 months old. I am trying to see if anyone might have any ideas of what could cause such a sudden death. According to the student, her boys were fine last night. This morning, they were curled up together dead and stiff.  No wounds or signs of fighting.

From speaking to her, it doesn't sound like they got into anything that could have poisoned them. There is nothing near their cage that they could have gotten and my student says there's nothing they could have gotten into during their last free-range time.  I asked her if their diet has changed, she says that it hasn't and that the bag of food she's been using has been open for about a week. Her four female rats have been eating the same things as the males and they are all apparently fine.

No porphoryn staining anywhere and she didn't see any signs of illness at any time during the past few days. No sneezing, wheezing, diarrhea. They just died. Does anyone know of any illness that would show no symptoms and kill the little guys just like that?

I don't know, I keep thinking that they *must* have gotten into something to BOTH be dead that quickly, but she can't think of anything poisonous they've been around. If it is some kind of illness, I have concerns about the fact that her 4 female ratties have been in the same room as the 2 males who died.

Poor little guys, so sad. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance, everyone.

[JR1030]

I'm sorry about the boys.  But I have to say, I'd take anything she says with a grain of salt, unfortunately.  My feeling is they must have gotten into something, or they were both really, really sick and she didn't notice, and it was just a coincidence that they died in the same night.  And I hate to think that it's a good thing, but this means she doesn't have any more males, right? 

[lilspaz68]

Heart issues?  Stroke?  These often will take rats when they are younger.  But the 18 month old boy at the same time?  Yeah big grain of salt :sad-p:

[diabolique]

I know, I hate to admit it, but I am relieved that if something like this was going to happen ...the fact that it was the males and not females is somewhat of a blessing. Please don't take this wrong, anyone, there's a whole history behind this student of mine...utter trainwreck of irresponsible "oops" litters. In spite of it all, I do feel sad for her because I know she really loved the older male and he was her big squish.

I thought of maybe heart attack or stroke, too...but both of them dying on the same night seems just too coincidental. She swears there were no signs of illness, and I know she's been taking better care of them since she has fewer rats now. I just don't know what could cause something so sudden in BOTH of them, other than some kind of contact with something toxic or poisonous.

[scout]

I'm sorry to hear about their deaths. I hope the four remaining girls are fine.

My guess would be something toxic - maybe a new cleaning product she used on the cage? Or something toxic in a new bag of bedding? Hopefully it's nothing more than an accidental poisoning and no one else is at risk. As they were both healthy when she saw them last, I would assume it's not related to their health.

[Dazydaizee]

What about something she may not think of as toxic? Like a plant or something they may have been exposed to, or a piece of furniture or wall they may have chewed? I imagine it's not anything in the air or that she uses to clean cages if the females are in the same room and their environments are taken care of in the same way... Any toys or new bedding that the boys have been exposed to that the females haven't? Is the cage itself different from the females? Perhaps they chewed the bars and ingested something toxic? I highly doubt that it was illness. Even two rats with similar DNA, similar age who are exposed to the same disease at the same time are likely not going to die the same day, especially within a few hours at most of each other... And these rats were different ages and I assume from different lines...

She really needs to check the environment VERY thoroughly to figure out what killed the boys so her girls won't suffer the same fate. Ideally if she still has the bodies she should have a necropsy done... especially where she has other rats in the house and has no clue what caused their deaths, she has to do all she can to figure it out... I would encourage her to have a necropsy done if possible...

I really think it's toxicity.. I don't know what else could possibly kill 2 rats overnight with no symptoms and not bother rats in an adjacent cage.. unless the two got into something in the environment that the girls didn't have access to.

[diabolique]

I absolutely agree that these little guys must have been exposed to something. I asked her about plants, and she told me that there are none near their cage. I asked if she had changed cleaning products, and she said that she hasn't. I hadn't thought about the possibility that they chewed something on their cage, I will have to ask her about that. I will also ask her if there has been a new bag of bedding opened up; I can't recall if she uses Carefresh or Aspen.  The cage is up high so that her little (4 year-old) brother can't get to it when she's not home, so I don't think anyone could have put anything strange in there.  I will also need to find out about new toys that may have been in the boys' cage. It's just so strange. No symptoms of illness, they just died and she found them curled up together this morning. I don't know how long it takes for rigor mortis to set in, but she told me that the older one was stiff. She had seen them awake and apparently well around 11:30pm, and found them dead around 6am.

I hope that it's not some strange illness that will also take her 4 females...but I don't know of anything that has absolutely NO symptoms at all.  My gut tells me they were poisoned by something. I hope they didn't suffer, I can't stand to think of that. 

ETA: Unfortunately, necropsy isn't an option for this girl. She's a teenager with a very limited income.

[JR1030]

My feeling is that if they were curled up together, they went peacefully.  If they had suffered in any way or had seizures or something, I think they would have been splayed out when she found them.  Sorry for the visual. 

[diabolique]

Thanks for saying that, JR. I do hope that you're right. I so hope that they were peaceful and not in any pain. These guys weren't even mine and this whole thing is really bothering me. Maybe it's because the older boy who died, Jerry, is the daddy to my 4 boys. I don't know, it's just all upsetting. 

[JR1030]

I know it's upsetting for you because he's the daddy, and because you were hoping to adopt those boys as well, and just because of the whole situation with the student.  It's a lot of upset in one situation. 

[scout]

Something similar happened years ago to someone else. She finally figured out she had let the rats play on a table that had recently been polished with one of those spray polishes. Enough got on their feet that when they groomed their feet they ingested enough to kill them. So it may be something in their play environment that they got into.

[Mischief Mistress]

If she is so curius as to what killed them maybe she should bring them in for an autopsy, for the sake of the other girls as well. 

[NightmareWolfie1]

If she is so curius as to what killed them maybe she should bring them in for an autopsy, for the sake of the other girls as well. 

She already said the girl is a teenager on a limited income. No chance for necropsy.

[ickybana5]

Is there a difference in where the cages are placed?  It could have been some sort of gas leak/carbon monoxide that pooled in a certain area.  If the boys' cage was in a low ventilation area, high up, and away from the girls, it is entirely possible that fumes of some sort killed them but spared the others.  In this case, it's worth having someone with a geiger counter come over and check out the area.  Another hypothesis: could they have eaten some sort of poisonous spider or something?  I would think that if a rat ate something like a black widow (they may have shared it) it would be quite lethal, and it would explain why no one knew of anything different in their environment and why the girls are okay.  Just some ideas... I hope you can get to the bottom of this to make sure her girl rats are safe!