Worried - will my mice make my rats sick?

[rattiecakes]

Hi,

I have 6 mice that we've had for a while - one group of four that we've had for 4 months, and then another pair that we've had for 3 months (these two live in another aquarium, but right next to the other group).  They're all female.  In the group of 4, there were originally 6 - one passed away after a month.  Another passed away about a month ago, and now two more are sick.  They all have had the same symptoms - they have a hunched posture, very rapid breathing, their eyes are closed, and they're kind of just sitting in a corner, immobile.  Each time, I've separated the sick individuals, and they pass away before I can get them to the vets in the AM. 

These mice have not been exposed to any new mice or other animals in the 4+ months that they've been in our home.

Except for my rats.  I have two rats that we've had for two months and I love them dearly.  I love the mousies, and it truly breaks my heart to see them clearly suffering.  As much as I love the mice, I'm VERY, VERY attached to my rats and am in a panick.  Is it likely that the mice are suffering something viral as they seem to all be getting ill?  Or could it be a  genetic thing as the ones that have gotten ill are from the same litter?  I've read that there are illnesses that can affect both mice and rats, but I have no idea of what to look for.

I would be so grateful for any advice at all.

** edited to add :

My mice and rats have never been in contact with one another, but my rats have visited the room that he mice are housed in.
 

[LastEchoes]

Sounds like your mice are having respiratory infection issues...and no, that wont transfer from mice to rats or vise versa.

What bedding do you have your mice on? How often do you clean the tanks? Resp infections are fairly easily treated with the right antibiotic. From what you're describing, vet visit for your mice is needed ASAP. URI are a painful way to die.

[ickybana5]

Rats CAN catch diseases from mice (though not from most other rodents.) The Sendai virus and mycoplasma are airborn pathogens that can be passed from mice to rats and vice versa.  PLEASE don't let anyone tell you that your rats are safe from the diseases your mice carry!  To prove my point and head off any heated debate over the subject, here are my references:

First, this quote from the rat and mouse gazette to illustrate why I am concerned about the disease being Sendai or Myco:

"In mice, there are only two respiratory diseases recognized as causing serious clinical symptoms. Those are the Sendai virus and Mycoplasma pulmonis, a bacterium. Sendai virus is the most significant disease for mice, causing terrible epidemics with high mortality when in the acute phase."

 
Now that we know it is one of those two things, here is the down and dirty about Myco being passed from the National Fancy Rat Society:

"With M. pulmonis only rats and mice carry it and they are the only species affected. They cannot catch it from rabbits, humans or other rodents. However, rats and mice can transmit it to each other. Other species have their own species of Mycoplasma but each one behaves a bit differently. Rats and mice become infected with respiratory Mycoplasma either at birth if the doe has vaginal infection or by inhaling infected aerosols later."

And here is one from the rat and mouse gazette about Sendai:

"The disease is extremely contagious. Recently weaned mice, rats, hamsters, and guinea pigs are the main carriers of this disease. This disease is usually associated only with mice, but that seems to be because it isn't abnormal for mice to carry it with or without symptoms. For the other rodents mentioned, if they are previously not exposed to the disease, then they are at high risk of being infected when exposed to a carrier. Sendai is just as deadly to any of these rodents as it is for mice. "

And another quote from a Swedish Show-Mouse site:

"If you have rats, isolate them from your mice. Rats can get a Sendai Virus infection, too. The symptoms aren't as severe as with mice, but the infection does lower the rats' resistance to other illnesses. This means that other diseases may attack much more easily and with more severe results. Mycoplasma pulmonis combined with Sendai can be pretty fatal at worst. Furthermore, Mp is often present with other bacterial infections, like the CAR bacillus."

I think that last one says it all and a vet is a must at this point.  They may start them on antibiotics even thoug sendai is a virus, just to make sure no other infections take hold, since that is the real killer with rats.  They can be symptomless until something like Myco takes hold, then they just go downhill so fast.  I wish you the best of luck, and I am sorry if this scares you, but it is better to see to it right away and then have nothing to worry about.  Good luck!!

[rattiecakes]

The mice are on carefresh and I clean their cages about every 4 days. 

So, is it possible that the mice have had Sendai and just have not exhibited symptoms until now?  I'll get them to the vet first thing in the am.  I should take them all, right?  It breaks my heart to see them so ill.  The one healthier mousie found her sick buddy and just snuggled up next to her.  It's so very sad 

I'm in a panic about the rat's possibly getting sick.  They've spent hours in the computer room with me where the mice live.  I'm not really sure what to do.  I have nowhere for them to stay other than here and I'm just freaking out!  Should I take the rats to the vet as a precaution? 

[ickybana5]

You do need to take your rats to the vet ASAP, but they are not in immediate danger of dying right now.  They will be in danger if they are exposed to some secondary pathogen (since that is the main danger with sendai,) so getting them on antibiotics is always a good idea in such a situation.  I wish you the best of luck and please don't worry any more than you have to.  Chances are, with the proper care, your ratties will be just fine.

[LastEchoes]

The mice are on carefresh and I clean their cages about every 4 days. 

So, is it possible that the mice have had Sendai and just have not exhibited symptoms until now?  I'll get them to the vet first thing in the am.  I should take them all, right?  It breaks my heart to see them so ill.  The one healthier mousie found her sick buddy and just snuggled up next to her.  It's so very sad 

Not really, in my opinion, given that you've had your mice for 3-4 months...given how contagious it is, you rats would have gotten it by now...it really sounds like a resp infections that possibly turned into pneumonia. In any case, they'll need a vet.

[ickybana5]

LastEchoes (I really don't want to argue with you again over anything, and I suspect you are taking your stance just to disagree with me) If you read carefully, it says in one of my posts that rats can have sendai and show no symptoms until they get a secondary infection.  The real danger to the rats is not sendai itself, but other pathogens that can attack the rat's weakened immune system.  Plus, why would you tell someone not to seek vet care when there is even a remote chance of their rat having something deadly?  Even if it was only a small chance, (which it is not) it is better to be safe than sorry and start the rats on antibiotics to head off a secondary infection.  If they get sick with something else, especially some form of pneumonia, they can be dead in less than a day. Please seek vet care even if your rats are not showing symptoms.  Chances are they have been infected for awhile and just have not gotten any other illness during that time.  I wish you the best of luck, rattiecakes, and your ratties will be just fine if they get the treatment they need.

[LastEchoes]

Man, what do you have against me...I stated MY OPINION and before you attack me again because we don't agree...read what i said....I told the poster TWICE that vet is needed. Just respond to the POSTER not to others.

[Marybelle]

Okay, there is obviously a communication problem here, but you're both saying the same thing.  The mice need to see a vet ASAP, and it's not a bad idea for the rats, either.  There are diseases that will pass back and forth, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's what this is, but the concern is there. 

What are the chances that you have wild mice in your house, rattiecakes?  Sometimes disease can come in that way, as well, especially if the wild mice are foraging for the food you're feeding to your mice.

[rattiecakes]

Thanks, everyone for the advice.  Two mice passed away last night, so there are three remaining and we're off to the vet's this afternoon.  I'll take my rats separately so that they're not in the same car together. 

I scrubbed the mice cages down and moved them as far as I possibly can from the rats.  I scrubbed down the computer room and then I took a hot shower and put my clothes directly into the wash, scrubbed my nails and blew my nose a bunch.  I don't know what else I can do to protect the healthy rodents.  I'm just praying that they'll be okay.

I wasn't aware that the Sendai virus could be present without symptoms.  That's pretty scary to me.  I thought that it was symptomatic and then fatal pretty quickly.  I think that I assumed that the three-week quarantine helped to eliminate the threat of this in that if a new rat/mouse had Sendai, it would most likely become apparent in that 3-week period.  Pretty scary.  Since all of our animals were here for months without any symptoms, I was sure we were out of the woods with things like that.

I'll take all of the animals to the vet's regardless, but is it possible that the mice had something else?  My SO said that I'm getting too worried and that the poor mice might have something that's not necessarily transmitted to the other mouse cage or to the rats.

I also spent some time looking for signs of wild mice.  It's not out of the question as we've had mice in the attic before. 

This is so sad and also nerve-wracking.  I'm not sure I want to bring any more rats into our home after this, quarantine or not.  I'm just freaked out and so worried.  I have so much more respect for people that work at rescue today!

[LastEchoes]

Oh no...sorry for your loss of the two more mice. =( Hopefully the vet will be able to tell you what's going on and treat it successfully.

[Mousie452]

Wow, your mice are going quick. Its gotta be something bad because I've treated mice for URIs before and they don't just up and die overnight. They act like the rats do (sniffles and sneezes). The only time I've seen mice hunched over like that was dehydration in a feeder cage where the water bottle was too strong for them to drink from (the store people got a different bottle as soon as I pointed it out). Hopefully your vet will be able to straighten this out. I hope there are no other little animals at the vet's office that can be infected.