repiratory advice to help a sick Ewok

[rat_in_a_hoodie]

"Ewok" the sick rat is not actually an Ewok, she just thinks she is: hanging from the cage bars, swinging from the hammocks, wishing she lived in a tree house I'm sure.

But now she is not able to do that stuff.  She's pretty bad up.  I've got her on two antibiotics prescribed by the 24-hour emergency vet we went to Thursday night, however, I'm very worried.   

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On Tuesday Oct 7 I noticed her making strange open-mouthed squeaky repeated breathing noises, but she stopped soon after. I now realize she was gasping for breath and I should have taken her in right away.  I may have waited too long. 

On Thursday night I noticed the breathing problem again and panicked running-around jumps.  I took her in - my regular vet moved a few months ago so I don't have a rat-specialty vet, will take her to a new "exotics" vet on tuesday (its a long weekend now).

The vet gave her :

Baytril 50mg/ml, 0.14 ml per dose
&   Doxycycline 100 mg/ml,  0.14 ml per dose

twice a day, 12 hour intervals.

 Ewok has been taking it ok.  She is still breathing poorly at times.  She is in her travel bag, alone (shes mostly a loner) with the top open enough for her to come out if she wants.  There is a heating pad under the bag, with fleece and food in there too, and a bathroom box nearby.  I have been turning on the hot shower and boiling water to humidify the place more.   

My questions are,
         -  What have other rat lovers experienced with similar cases of respiratory illness?
        - did the meds work?
        -  how long did most take the meds for (this vet gave her 1 week worth  - but many websites say rats need to be on antibiotics for longer, or forever...)?
        - how is quality of life for a rat if they survive - are some ok? are they in a downward spiral?
        - is quarantine reccomended? (I am anyway, since she's a loner) or is it better for a rat to be with loved ones?
        - what concerns should I have for her cagemates? The cage is very clean now. Chance of contamination?
        -Do you have any other advice or thoughts about this in general?


I wonder if this is pneumonia, or something else.

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Ewok is about 2 years old, but I don't know for sure - I got her from a rescue organization, she had been left out overnight in the snow in a box filled her baby siblings in front of an SPCA (most of them didn't survive).  She and her now-passed sister came to me and were messed up, I wondered if she had brain damage, she was mistrustful of humans and a biter. She was skittish and hid in the cage most of the time and mostly stayed alone in there.

In the past 8 or 9 months she has become much much friendlier, stopped biting, hung out with her cagemates more (stopped blitz-humping them too) and all in all proven herself to be a wonderful little girl.  I really hope she is able to fight this illness and have the long and happy life she deserves. I feel just terrible that I didn't catch it earlier, and blame myself for not cleaning their cage more often too.     

I use newspaper for the floors and cleaned it about once every 5 days, but there are 5 rats in there.  They sleep in hammocks and things hanging from the top part.  Its a really big cage, about 3 and a half or 4 feet tall by 2 feet by 3 feet,  with 3 plastic floors with plastic ramps.  They use the bottom for a bathroom and sleep and eat and stuff in the middle and at the top, but I keep a sheet most of it most of the time and wonder if thats bad for ventilation (they don't like the light so much).

I've been taking care of rats for a year and a half now but would love more advice and thoughts.  Thanks very much for your time.  I hope you and your loved ones are well and happy!

Kelley

[Claymore]

As long as she's still eating, drinking and generally acting like she's feeling better, I wouldn't worry excessively.  If she's not acting any better, Take her back to the emergency vet immediately.  Take her in to vet Monday, not Tuesday.  The doxy/baytril is the combo of choice, and it works in 2 different ways.  The doxycicline stops or slows down the infection, while the baytril attacks it directly.  The normal duration for the treatment is roughly 30 days.  Go to http://www.rmca.org/Articles/dchart.htm and print up 3 copies of the chart, one for you, one for the e-vet, and one for the exotic to put in her chart.  That will tell you about the various antibiotics, how they work, what they work for, and the dosage.  It's a good reference, and you'll be able to read the information and question your vet more effectively on meds.  Also check out http://www.ratguide.com/ and look under health.

Something you can do in the mean time is take her in the bathroom with you and turn on the shower on as hot as it will go and let her breathe in the steam for about 15 minutes.  Do this twice a day, it will help loosen up the congestion.  There are a couple meds that require a nebulizer, but your vet will let you know if she is giving you one of them.  She will also instruct you on how to do it, and how to get a hold of a nebulizer, if she doesn't have one for you to borrow.

I know this is a lot to digest, but it is possible to bring a rat back from the brink of death, I know we did.  He had to be on oxygen for 22 hours, with 2 nebulizer treatments, and a good, hefty dose of medication injected under the skin.  They also gave him fluids under his skin to keep him hydrated.  He was checked on every hour, and he started eating solid food again.  He had another good 6 months (he was sick when we got him as a 2 month olo, and this was his 3rd, and worse bout with pneumonia) until he died from undiagnosed congestive heart failure.  He did cost $800 to keep alive, but he was my 14 yr old daughter's heart rat, they had a bond that cannot be described, and it was worth every dollar.  He did much better after his trip to the e-vet for the intense treatment, feeling better quickly, although he never gained all the weight back.

I hope this helps, and I would recommend that you take her back to the e-vet either tonight or early tomorrow morning.  I know it's not cheap, but which takes precidence, money or your babies life.  We chose life over money, even though it created some financial hardship for the month, but it was our daughter's baby, and we had try everything we could to save him.  It sounds like you're choosing life as well, so do what you must do, take her back to the e-vet, get an x-ray, and find out exactly how much fluid is in the lungs.  She may be able to prescribe additional meds to help get rid of the fluid.  At the very least you'll know how bad things are. 

[GStar]

It is possible to get them back from the brink and it was worth it for us when our first rat was 2yrs and got a chest infection we thought she wouldn't make it but she did.  Fluid is really important, you can give soy milk, water, watered down fruit juice, rice water (water that rice has been cooked in, which is given to malnourished people as a starting point back to food).  If she is not drinking on her own you can gently syringe it into her, not much at a time like 0.1ml and be careful as it can go into the breathing tube.

I agree with Claymore regarding taking her back to the vet immediately if she doesn't get any better.

3 weeks seems to be the standard minimum for antibiotics however I have heard another member say they give the meds for one week after all the symtoms have disappeared.  One week is not long enough IMO.

Generally rats do better if they have at least one snuggle buddy.  It depends if she is being supported by her cagemates or if they are bullying or ignoring her. 

[lilspaz68]

The vet gave her :

Baytril 50mg/ml, 0.14 ml per dose
&   Doxycycline 100 mg/ml,  0.14 ml per dose

twice a day, 12 hour intervals.

 
My questions are,
         -  What have other rat lovers experienced with similar cases of respiratory illness?
        - did the meds work?
        -  how long did most take the meds for (this vet gave her 1 week worth  - but many websites say rats need to be on antibiotics for longer, or forever...)?
        - how is quality of life for a rat if they survive - are some ok? are they in a downward spiral?
        - is quarantine reccomended? (I am anyway, since she's a loner) or is it better for a rat to be with loved ones?
        - what concerns should I have for her cagemates? The cage is very clean now. Chance of contamination?
        -Do you have any other advice or thoughts about this in general?


I wonder if this is pneumonia, or something else.
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Starting with the antibiotics, the vet got the combo right, she's been on them for 2 days now?
BUT the dosages are extremely high.

UNLESS your Ewok is huge, I estimated her at 400 grams
Baytril is dosed at 10 mg/kg, you have 50 mg/ml baytril, so her dose should be .08 cc's twice a day of BID
Doxy is dosed at 5 mg/kg, you have 100 mg/ml doxy, so her dose should be .02 cc's twice a day or BID

This will extend the number of days you can give it to her, so this is a good thing   Doubling up at the beginning of a treatment isn't bad at all, but you can bring it down IF you are sure you have these 2 concentrations. If you still want to give higher dosages try .1 cc of baytril and .05 cc of doxy instead.

Usually you will notice a difference in 3-4 days.  Sometimes 5 depending on the rat's immune system and illness.
IF after 5 days you don't see any improvement at all, you need to change up your meds, since that particular bacteria is not responding to those meds...other abs might work better

Now to your questions...

1) been through many a URI, and pneumonia.  Pnemonia, they usually get very quiet and stop moving, eating and drinking.  It sounds like you have a URI going on.
2) The meds usually work, unless you have a poor chronic rat that has been off and on meds all her life or an ollld rat whose body has worn out, sometimes the immune system cannot bounce back.
3) A course of abs should be for 2 weeks minimum (1 week will not cure and when you stop the illness will return with a vengeance.  3 weeks is a good course of meds.  Or you can use the rule of thumb.  Treat your rat for 1 week more after ALL symptoms have disappeared. 
4) A lot of rats are cured.  Some older ones only get "better" but are not cured, and sometimes it doens't work as the immune system is worn out.
5) Since like us, the contagious part of the illness is before the symptoms show, then all the cagemates are exposed already, no point quarantinng.  If at all possible it would be best to put her back with her friends, even if she is a loner, its her choice and having other rats just being around might be a comfort to her.  IF she is too sick, and the others are bugging her or stepping on her, then you can pull her out.  I have had cages of 13 or more and only 1 rat has gotten sick...I think its more the strength/weakness of the immune system that is the factor than the contagion.

I hope she feels better soon...hydration, food (you can tempt her with yummy liquidy things she can lick up between breathing), and warmth are all key to getting her through this.

good luck Ewok!! 


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[scout]

Baytril has a wide latitude in the dosing, as does doxycycline. I'd stick with what the vet prescribed, and if you have doubts about the dosage, call your vet and ask questions. You might also ask about the possibility of heart problems, given her age. Here are some links with more information about pneumonia and heart trouble from the Rat Guide.

Pneumonia

Congestive Heart Failure

Cardiomyopathy

And articles about the meds you're giving:

Baytril

Doxycycline