menlo rat question

[Noe]

My issue is this: Wolfchan made a perfectly reasonable suggestion, Babyblue backed it up and restated the reason people would want the question answered. The response? "If you don't like it, you don't have to help." I hate to break it to you, but the question isn't going to go away. You can keep getting frustrated and pretending nobody cares about poor little you and your hard work, or you can give an answer to reassure people.

I've asked the same question and received the same brush-off. Of course, I asked it toward the beginning of the operation, so I had the chance to start losing interest early. Not everybody else had that luxury. Now, the "let's lock the mentally ill guy in a cage with no water" BS is bringing out the real "we love animals, we hate people" attitudes. Guess what - the people are the ones helping you. It's great that you care about the rats, but you might want to at least pretend to care about the species you're asking to help you.

With attitudes guaranteed to chase off those who might want to help, you must have more help than you can possibly handle. Good luck with getting rid of the excess volunteers. You're on the right path (and if you're getting too many donations, let me know. I'll take some of the cash).

How can I not get frustrated? We've admitted we haven't thought of a good permanent solution yet, we've asked again and again for suggestions on what to do, and we just keep getting the same demands. It feels like talking to a brick wall. You keep asking for an answer, but we don't have one. I've tried to explain this and ask for help, but it isn't working and I'm frankly at my wits end as to what to do to to satisfy you. So I say again, if you are concerned about the situation, then stop berating us because we aren't perfect and help us fix things.

[Anna]

It's really easy to sit over there where you don't have to help or do anything and tell us to find a solution isn't it?

We're here tearing our hair out trying to figure out what we can do and all you can do is criticize.What would you have us do to satisfy you?

I'm caring for 78 rats and 5 mice out of my own pocket. All the donations go to Lile. I *wish* I was getting anything, but I'd rather put myself into debt helping them than answer the accusations of people like you who are so perfect and have all the answers.

Maybe instead of criticizing  you could give us the answer.

[Iconoclast]

It's really easy to sit over there where you don't have to help or do anything and tell us to find a solution isn't it?

It's even easier when I've been told I don't have to help. You've let me off the hook. Quit complaining.

Sorry to break it to you icono but noone is obligated to give you any answers. They have answerd the best they can and if thats not good enough for you then hey life sucks dosnt it.

Gabrielle, I'm not demanding answers, nor am I pretending anybody is obligated to give me any. Please read my entire post before pretending you know what I've said.


People who are offering to help want some reassurance.
People who want the help aren't offering any reassurance. It doesn't take a genius to see what's not working. I suppose I can restate what's already been said, but if my explanations aren't doing any good, I doubt my point will even be taken. I just keep looking for more ways to restate the obvious.

But it's your operation, so I'll butt out and stop telling you how I think it should be done. I had hoped that by telling you why I no longer wanted to be involved, you might realize why so many other people aren't getting as involved as you would like. I guess that's not going to happen.

[Noe]

People who want the help aren't offering any reassurance.

Maybe if you were more specific about the exact kind of reassurance you're seeking, we would be able to address your concerns. I assumed you were worried about what would prevent Robert from doing this again, and I thought our attempts to address that concern were pretty well documented throughout this thread. If I'm mistaken, please let me know and I'll do my best to get you the answers you want.

Luckily for those animals and for Robert, there are a lot of people who share your concerns who have chosen to work with us and help us find ways of fixing the problem, and I hope they all know how grateful we are.

[Anna]

I just can't believe anyone would say such horrible things to people who are doing their absolute best to save as many animal lives as they can. I'm amazed and completely boggled.

I don't know what you want for reassurance. We've said many times that we would like  help in finding a solution. However berating us doesn't help anything.

So there's no reassurance to give.
Instead  you've berated and belittled us,  insulted us and never offered a solution.

[elegy]

icono don't you think they're doing the best that they can? they're exhausted both physically but i rather imagine mentally and emotionally as well. they're doing everything they can think of to help fix this situation, purely because they feel it is the right thing to do, and people want to tear them down. they want more answers more answers and they don't have answers. they say they don't have answers and people keep demanding answers. wouldn't you get a little frustrated and hurt and angry too? maybe snap a little bit? give them a freaking break.

i know i couldn't do what they're doing. there is no way i could even start, so i give them my upmost respect. they're rescuing the rats and mice because that is what they have within their grasp to do right now. it's one thing to get the animals out and to better homes. it's entirely another to deal with a mentally ill individual in a country where there are so many cracks to slip through and so little help to be had. not to mention that this is an adult human being. one can only force and cajole an adult human being so far if they don't want to be.

they are doing the best they can. that's the bottom line. they seem to be more than willing to look at helpful suggestions. the last thing they need is to be torn down even further. don't you think they're low enough just going to that place regularly and looking at what they're dealing with?

[Iconoclast]

I'm talking with Anna on IRC right now, and it's clear to me that I've misunderstood a lot of what's going on, and I was more than a little too harsh in trying to clarify my misunderstandings. I underestimated the level of stress she was under because of this, and I'm getting the answers I wanted by asking the questions differently.

To make up for being an ass, I've offered to make a FAQ or statement to be added to the website. Hopefully, it will answer the questions and offer the reassurance people are looking for.

I'm sorry. And hopefully I can make reparations.

[Anna]

Thank you Icono. We've gotten along so well in the past that I knew we had to be misunderstanding each other.

I still   you

[Noe]

Thank you, Icono. I'm glad we got this straightened out, and we all really appreciate your help. I'm sure you and others have concerns that we haven't even considered; the more heads we put together on this, the better the results will be, I think.  

[Kathleen]

I've offered to make a FAQ or statement to be added to the website. Hopefully, it will answer the questions and offer the reassurance people are looking for.

That sounds like a great idea. Where are we going to put up this FAQ, so that I can direct people to it in the future?

And about the cage jokes that you said were bothering you...I'm sure none of us mean that in an anti-human sort of way. I have no problem with people in general. I don't feel entirely pleased, however, with someone who's abusing hundreds of animals. I know he needs help and is sick and all, but I kinda felt the need to blow off some steam after finding 5 dead and countless ill animals at his house yesterday...that makes sense, right?  

[Noe]

I kinda felt the need to blow off some steam after finding 5 dead and countless ill animals at his house yesterday...that makes sense, right?  

Yup, that's where I was coming from too. I do genuinely care that Robert gets help, but he isn't suffering as much as the animals in his care and sometimes we just need to let out the frustration.

[Anna]

We'll put it up on Jotenheim as soon as Icono and I finish it. He's writing it up, providing the questions, and we're working out answers together.

I'll post when it's up

[LittlePixie]

Phew... I was starting to wonder about Icono... I thought his first post about not helping was a joke, and laughed my head off saying "Oh, that Icono..."... and then nearly dropped dead off my chair as it began to dawn on me he was serious.

Good on you, all of you... keep up the good work.

[Iconoclast]

You're welcome.

When I talked to Anna, I realized a few things:
* There are a lot of questions that aren't being answered.
* I still want to help, but not without those answers.
* I know (or think I know) the best way to address the questions and keep them from being asked ad nauseum.
* The rescuers are just too busy with the rodent side of things to sort out the questions.

That all adds to me being the one to make the answers page I want to see. I've taken the big, vague questions and broken them down into manageable chunks. (How do we know he won't do this again? We don't. But here are the steps being taken, here's what the law says, here are some of the plans, here are all the reasons why it's very unlikely it won't happen again. Nothing can guarantee it, no matter what is done, but here's a whole load of reassurance).

I don't know how busy you are, Lenore, but if there's anything you want to see added to it, send me a message. If there's a question you're sick of being asked, tell me and I'll work on it.

[ruthiechan]

I'm so glad we're finding solutions.

What bothered me the most about the way people were asking questions and such is that not only did it feel condescending, but it felt like I(when dealing with people on other forums) and Anna and everyone else were getting reemed for being honest. I just wanted to shout, "What!? You want me to lie to about it just so you can feel better?"

I'm sorry for hurting anyone's feelings, but I was feeling rather frustrated, and I'm not even there personally! So yeah, apologies.

[Ailidh]

Hi

I am the other "condescending moron" from Rat Palace.

I would like to point out that I responded with my concerns about the gentleman in question after Ruthie posted that he was an "unmedicated schizophrenic". I felt that it was quite reasonable to suggest that perhaps appropriate psychiatric treatment may assist in making the management of his behaviour more effective. I gave this opinion from my professional experience - I am a Lecturer in Clinical Psychiatry for a nursing undergraduate programme at a local university.

I made no criticism of the efforts being made to rescue the rats and mice and contrary to what has been reported here, at no time did I say I would not assist the efforts.

I do however believe that the management of the gentleman requires professional help and is likely to be too much of a comittment for those who are assisting with the rats.

Working from the label of schizophrenia that Ruthie posted, I suggested that some of the newer antipsychotic medications such as Olanzapine and Clozapine may ameliorate his symptoms as with a diagnosis of schizophrenia his animal hoarding would likely be the result of delusional systems.  

However if you are dealing with a true animal hoarder ( as has been described on these boards) the problem is much more complex and it is going to be more difficult to access professional help and find a long term solution. Gathering documentation of his behaviour regarding animals to obtain a conviction will be essential and I note from this board that data collection has begun with this aim.

I have had experience with a small number of hoarders and it tends to be more related to disorders of personality and mental retardation. Medication is unlikely to have any impact in such a case and the only option for dealing with this is for the gentleman to have clear consequences for his behaviour - and a conviction will likely be the most meaningful and effective consequence.

The purpose of my post on RatPalace was to express my concern for the safety of those directly involved and to suggest possible courses of action that may result in a favourable outcome for all concerned.

As I stated in my post I applaud the actions of those caring for the creatures, but felt that the gentleman's psychiatric condition should be manged professionally.

Caroline

[EmilyRugburn]

For those of you who don't know, I am the condescending moron in question from RatPalace.  Word gets around, girls.  

"Girls"?  Let's get one thing straight; While I found the general attitude condescending, I never used the word "morons".  I want that to be PERFECTLY clear because I don't feel anyone at RP is a moron, but I do feel quite frustrated because it really does seem that so much focus is being placed on Robert's condition, and more specifically, what  Anna and Lenore are going to do about it.

I don't want to get into any kind of argument with you, either, however, for you to say "nothing is being done about it" is quite rude.

It's not Anna's responsibility to do anything about Robert!  How much more plain does this have to be?  Why is it that it seems SO MANY people are taking this self righteous attitude?  "You're helping the rats but not that man, and that's just WRONG so I'm going to do NOTHING!"  Well, you know what?  HOw about taking a more pro-active stance yourself?  

What this is beginning to look like is that there are people who want to help the rats, and people who want the people who are helping the rats to also help the man, and because the man isn't being assisted the way you (meaning the group of naysayers) see fit, the entire rescue is not worthwhile.

Well... what if the people who are so concerned about Robert's well-being actually did something about that, and the people who are concerned about the rats worked in that area?  That way we don't have the back and forth bickering I mentioned on RP which STILL accomplishes NOTHING!

It's better to have a massive team striving for one or two goals than to have to waste time creating posts in defense of the actions that have already been taken.  If you don't like what you see, then please, do something to change it rather than continually knock down what's been done already!

[ratqueen]

It's not Anna's responsibility to do anything about Robert!  How much more plain does this have to be?  Why is it that it seems SO MANY people are taking this self righteous attitude?  "You're helping the rats but not that man, and that's just WRONG so I'm going to do NOTHING!"  Well, you know what?  HOw about taking a more pro-active stance yourself?  

I can't believe I'm allowing myself to be drawn back into this, but your ridiculous hyperbole seems to be enough.

1) I didn't say it was personally Anna's job to do anything.  What I said is that Robert requires help also.
2)  This is not a self-righteous attitude people are taking.  Listen carefully here: People are concerned because of the descriptions being given us about the situation.  We are being told he is an unmedicated psych patient, we are being told he is an animal hoarder and has done this before, we are being told that you have no solutions but are doing this anyway.  The "attitude" you think you're getting is worry - there is no solution in the future to stop this man, and I understand that you guys don't have one and, believe me, I've been trying to think of one myself.  I haven't yet, although given your nasty-ass replies, I'm not certain I wouldn't get my head chewed off and spit out if I tried to supply one.
3)  I have never, ever said that I would not help, nor have most of the other people posting to this thread.  What we've said is that we're uncomfortable with the situation given how it is going, because we can't understand it fully without being directly involved, and it is very hard to think of doing a massive rescue of this sort with no contingency for if it happens again.

I have never, nor am I now, tried to irritate, annoy or upset the people involved in this.  What I'm trying to do is make you aware that there has to be more to this than just removing the animals.  If Lile watches him, bless her efforts, that's wonderful, but I just don't think that will be enough of a deterrent to a man who is this sick.

I also want to make one last think CRYSTAL CLEAR here:  I wholeheartedly support the rescue of these animals.  I think the work that the volunteers are doing is commendable in that area.  These animals all deserve better lives than they've been provided with.  The rescue/cleanup effort is a mountain of a job, and the people throwing themselves into it deserve a great huge round of applause.  I don't believe I have ever said otherwise, but if my words have been read wrong, that's unfortunate.

rq

[Suebee]

Just a "friendly" reminder before I even get past reading the first page of this thread:

It is against the ground rules to drag dirty laundry from other forums. We have a LOT of people who post at multiple forums, and it is in extremely poor taste to discuss issues at these other boards on our forum. If you have a problem with another forum out there, keep it OFF the board.

Thank you.

Edit: having skimmed the rest, I have decided to lock the thread. Anna has enough to worry about, and does not need to repeatedly justify herself. I'm actually quite appalled at the grilling she is receiving.

If people want to help, go ahead and help. As was said before, no one is obligated to help.