what to feed? (again)

[Courtney]

i just wanted to thank you, anaphylaxis, for taking your job so seriously and making sure the animals are well cared for after they leave the store.  i just wish that i had bought my first rat from someone as informed and knowledgeable as you.  the woman did a great job finding me the right pet but had nothing to offer for care (recommended pine, seed mix over lab blocks, a hamster cage, and no companionship).  so thank you for helping out new pet owners!

the info you have for feed looks good to me, but make sure that you mention how low protein is low enough.  nutro has 14% and if i remember right rats (especally males) should have no more than 16% protein.  

[BabyBlue]

Yeah no kidding. When I first bought my rat the lady actually recommended that I get a single rat because they'll bond with me more. She told me she had like 3 females at home but housed all of them separately! :huh:

[midnightsky]

just a random question: what other brands are kaytee (etc) affiliated w/? (so i can avoid those products 2).

[-Kelly-]

Kaytee makes: (just to name a few in the rat section)
? Berry Nibblers ? Nutra-Puffs Small Animal Garden Vegetable
? Carrot Nibblers ? Peanut Krunch-A-Rounds for Small Animals
? Chlorophyll Pine Bedding & Litter ? Perfect Choice Small Animal
? Corn Nibblers ? Red Cedar Bedding
? Fiesta Mouse & Rat ? Small Animal Chew Biscuits
? Forti-Diet Mouse & Rat ? Tropical Mix w/Yogurt Dips for Small Animals
? Mouse & Rat Healthy Bits ? Soy Nut Krunch-A-Rounds for Small Animals
? Natural Alfalfa Cubes for Small Animals ? Supreme Mouse/Rat Daily Blend
? Natural Aspen Bedding & Litter ? Supreme Peanuts
? Natural Pine Bedding & Litter ? Water Bottle
? Wood Pellet Bedding & Litter

To see pretty much all of their products, go here:

http://www.kaytee.com/companion_animals/mammals/
 

[SAM_PIBB]

Just so you know Ethoxyquin is actaully used in human food products as a preservitive!

time and time again, i see people berating others as "ignorant" for using kaytee.

once again, i thinks it's worth reminding everyone, when looking for RELIABLE information on the internet, be especially wary of sites other than .gov, .edu (non-personal sites), and respectable .org sites. be sure you understand what's being said (ask questions, forums are wonderful for this), and also be sure you aren't mixing apples with oranges--if you're looking for scientific information on rats, there is more likely than not, info out there specific to RATS. finally, while most newer journal articles are now available online, articles older than about 1995 are not, and you will actually have to go to the library to look up the hard copy.

in regards to ethoxyquin, here are the FACTS:

ethoxyquin IS used as a preservative in BOTH human- and animal-grade (including pet) foods; ethoxyquin levels of up to 100ppm in human-grade foods and up to 150ppm in animal-grade foods are allowed by the fda:
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts....howFR=1
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts....573.380

ethoxyquin at these levels DO NOT cause cancer or tumors in rats:
Western Utilization Research Branch, Albany CA, Agricultural Research Branch, "Supplementary Report of Data on Santoquin Feeding to Rats for 700 days," 1955.
these orginal 1955 results have been verified in all subsequent studies: ethoxyquin levels of 150ppm does not cause cancers or tumors in rats.

as i said above, ethoxyquin is an antioxidant and is currently being investigated for it's cancer FIGHTING properties. in particular, ethoxyquin has been found to prevent cancer caused by aflatoxin. aflatoxin is a common, naturally-occuring carcinogen found in foods, most notably corn, but also in many other grains, nuts, and seeds. rats are the species most sensitive to the effects of aflatoxin, and aflatoxin is why corn should be limited in their diet (nothing to do with nitrates). ethoxyquin also prevents chemical-initiated mammary tumor formation (as debbie d. reports tamoxifen also does). unfortunately, the levels of ethoxyquin needed for chemoprotective effects also causes kidney damage and disease. so at what levels does all this occur at? at least AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE higher than the fda-allowable levels of 150ppm, viz, 0.5% = 5000ppm:
Cabral JR and Neal GE, "The inhibitory effects of ethoxyquin on the carcinogenic action of aflatoxin B1 in rats," Cancer Lett. 19, 125, 1983.
Ito N, Hirose M, Fukushima S, Tsuda H, Tatematsu M, and Asamoto M., "Modifying effects of antioxidants on chemical carcinogenesis," Toxicol Pathol. 14, 315, 1986.
http://www.rmca.org/Articles/corn.htm

ETHOXYQUIN LEVELS OF 150PPM DOES NOT PREVENT NOR CAUSE CANCERS OR TUMORS IN RATS.

lab blocks remain the best option for rats, but not everyone has access to them. kaytee is usually readily available, and rat owners shouldn't be made to feel like they're doing something awful if they use kaytee.

i find it disturbing that people are comfortable in one breath renouncing katyee, and in the next advocating feeding their rats dog food. rats only need 12 mg/kg of zinc in their diet. at 250mg/kg, zinc becomes toxic to rats, resulting in copper deficiency, reduced growth rate, anorexia, anemia, and then death. nutro-lite has 175mg/kg of zinc, the SAME order of magnitude at which zinc becomes toxic.

lab blocks remain the best option for rats, but not everyone has access to them. kaytee is usually readily available, and rat owners shouldn't be made to feel like they're doing something awful if they use kaytee.

This is taken from what li_mei_hua said on the RMCA forums

[kmw]

My rats have always refused to eat any Kaytee products, with the exception a few parts of the grain mix.  

Even though Kaytee is readily available, the safety of ethoxyquin has not been conclusively proven to me.  I realize it is used in some human foods - chili powder is one.  But, I don't live off of chili powder.  I consume probably less than an ounce in a year.  HUGE bundles of pine and cedar are also available at my local pet store, but I don't use them, as their safety has not been conclusively proven to me.  

I don't advocate using a mix as the staple diet, because here in the US, with a minimal amount of effort, quality lab blocks can be obtained.  

If researchers begin to use Kaytee brand in their labs, I'll make the switch immediately.  Until then, I'll stick with Harlan Teklad.  

[BabyBlue]

Ok so Ethoxyquin is used in human food. In spices! How much of that do you consume? I'm sure no one uses that as their main diet. Comparing the amount of ethoxyquin in spices with seed mixes (which most people use as staple diet for their rats), espcially considering the SIZE of human body and that of rats, is not really a good argument if you ask me.

It's the same thing with pine. Some might argue that the amount of phenol oil in pine is not harmful enough, or many believe that the heat treated pine is ok because the harmful oil is reduced by the heat treatment. I ask, why would you take that chance when there are other options available? If you're not willing to pay a dollar or two more for safer bedding, then maybe you should reconsider having pets. So you say, you can only find Kaytee food at your petstores? What about Suebee's mix, which is cheaper and easy to make? What about other quality lab blocks, which you can order online and isn't all that much expensive? Maybe it's just me, but it seems there is no excuse why someone should use a product that's safety is questionable?

[SAM_PIBB]

It's not just in spices it's in the wax coating around the eggs and the wax coating around that apple you had this afternoon. I'm sure it's in more places than you know.
  Didn't I hear somewhere on here, If it's ok for me it's ok for my rats!?

[gabrielle1976]

Ok so its sapose to be safe cause its in humane food :huh:, alright I have a problem bealveing this, look at all the heart deises , cancer , dibetes, clogging of the arteries ect going on in us humanes and I say alot of human food isnat all that safe ether.
I choose not to take the risk its as simple as that, why risk it when there is better healther food out there. I dont like eating things with prservtavies and like to buy organic when I can, usually after buying my rats there organic foods I have to go with soups and stuff but Id rather risk getting cancer then giveing it to my rats.
Maybe one day well learn the E word is safe, but for now Id rather be safe then sorry.

[Suebee]

Didn't I hear somewhere on here, If it's ok for me it's ok for my rats!?

There are many foods that we eat that are poisonous for rats: blue cheese, licorice, rhubarb, orange juice (males). So OK for humans = ok for rats is absolutely false.

What I say is, if it's NOT good for me, my rats aren't getting it, either.

As for wax on apple skins... I wash my apples thoroughly... and if my rats get any of it, they don't get the skin (they don't eat it, anyway).

[adi]

I haven't actually followed any of the reports on Kaytee, I don't think its available here anyway. The only commercially available rat food I've seen in the UK is reggie, which isn't that good for your rats anyway but miles better than kaytee, by the sounds of things.  Even if it WAS the only thing I could find, I'd make my own mix. It's not hard. All the things I feed are bought for the household ANYWAY so it's not like any extra effort is used. Pasta spirals, shredded wheat, shreddies (or any other cereal along those lines) potatoes etc. They're all easy to find things.

Im in the UK as well and are a bit perplexed, especially seeing as im a newbie  

anywa, ive found 'Burgess SupaRat'...claims to be endorsed by the NFRS and the blurb on the packet seems very weill informed. Anyone know of this brand?

Also, i was looking for an alternative to wood shavings (ratsafe) the other day and heard that some people use wood based cat litter pellets. This is now in the bottom of the cage.. is it safe?

Cheers
adi

[Suebee]

wood-based? Do you mean paper-based?

Paper-based is fine, but I wouldn't use anything wood based unless you know what kind of wood it is. Hardwoods are safe (aspen), softwoods are not (pine, cedar).

[adi]

just checked.. its dust free pine based.. no good then? They seem fine on it and ive been using it a week.

[Suebee]

No good.

The effects of pine are not instant... they build and build over time. Extended exposure can cause respiratory problems, liver damage and kidney damage.

http://www.ratsrule.com/cedar.html

[adi]

okay point taken... so what should i be using? I want something similar to wood shavings that is okay for them.. bearing in mind they dont actually sleep on it, its just a cage liner...

[Suebee]

Sorry, meant to add that info...

In the UK a lot of people use Bob Martin's paper-based cat litter, or Bio-Catolet.

[adi]

okay cheers.. i can get Bob Martin stuff over here.. so i'll try and find some..

Cheers
adi