Grains-good, bad, or ugly

[dragonli]

Has anyone ever wondered if grains are healthy for rats? I know that many aren't good for humans (especially wheat. 50% of the population has an allergy to wheat.) These include soy, wheat as I mentioned, corn, oats, barley, some others I forgot, and sometimes rice. Many people are allergic to at least one of these. Also, after research, I've found that dog and cat food is horrible for those pets because of the grains. This has all got me wondering if the constant poor health of our ratties is in part because of what we feed them. I'm afraid to screw up their nutrition by taking away the grain foods, but in the same note I'm really beginning to wonder. What do you all think?

[Suebee]

I don't think all grains can be swept up in the same category. Each has its pros and cons.

Yes, some people have wheat allergies, and corn is not really the best staple, but think of the many thousands of years our species has been on the planet, many of them subsisting on grains.

I think they key is a well-balanced diet.

[Spiralgirl]

Yes, some people have wheat allergies, and corn is not really the best staple, but think of the many thousands of years our species has been on the planet, many of them subsisting on grains.

Kay...geek moment.

Actually when humans first switched from a hunter/gathering society to an agrarian one...health and life expentance went down, due to poor diet and increased work expended to obtain food.  HG societies worked less and relied on a more varied diet, while AG societies had one or two staples and put alot of effort into producing those stapes.

In the case of ratties...I totally agree, a balanced diet is best.  But also buy organic whenever possible, and keep foods stored properly.

[SonyaFancifulRats]

Has anyone ever wondered if grains are healthy for rats? I know that many aren't good for humans (especially wheat. 50% of the population has an allergy to wheat.) These include soy, wheat as I mentioned, corn, oats, barley, some others I forgot, and sometimes rice. Many people are allergic to at least one of these.

I'm curious about this.. where did you get the information? I am not discounting it, but I don't know anyone who is allergic to any of these..I have heard of people being allergic to wheat but I everyone I know with food allergies is allergic to various meats, fish, nuts and chocolate....milk or dairy...

[scout]

My ratties have been on an organic grain diet all their lives and are quite healthy. There's a post someway back that has my diet. My particular batch doesn't care for wheat, so the only wheat they get is in combination with other grains (like in a cereal). I don't know what else you'd feed rats for a base diet if not grains?

[Suebee]

Actually when humans first switched from a hunter/gathering society to an agrarian one...health and life expentance went down, due to poor diet and increased work expended to obtain food.  

Point taken -- but we're still here.  

[dragonli]

I'm curious about this.. where did you get the information? I am not discounting it, but I don't know anyone who is allergic to any of these..I have heard of people being allergic to wheat but I everyone I know with food allergies is allergic to various meats, fish, nuts and chocolate....milk or dairy...

I've actually been studying diet for quite a few years after I developed hypoglycemia and started gaining weight uncontrollably, regardless of "health foods" and laying off of fats and fast foods. Then I read a book called the False Fat Diet by Elson M Haas. Just a quick dab before I continue, there are different degrees of allergies, from very mild to deadly. Most of the people with allergies have it mild enough that they don't realize what's causing it until they change their diet drastically.  

The book mentioned that there are 7 food items many people are allergic to in some form. That would be soy, dairy, wheat, peanuts, chocolate, eggs, and corn.  (there are more, but these are the top offenders.) Through detoxing and diet, I found that I have a mild allergy to wheat and dairy-both cause me to be congested and bloat a good 5-10 lbs in one shot of water retention while the body tries to flush out the allergen.

After reading that, I started doing more study on similar subjects, including the Paleolithic diet (which follows the hunter/gatherer eating styles) and delved deeper into feeding a raw meat diet to cats and dogs. In all cases, those who switched off of grains (I know, makes more sense for cats and dogs) or at least common grains, such as wheat (many are ok with rice) tended to thrive, have less if any health problems, and had more energy.

It just made me think because it seems from all the posts that ratties are constantly at the vet for some thing or another, and I wonder if foods we all think of as OK are really causing part of the problem. Probably some scientific data on diet would do, but I hate reading those things (makes brain hurt). So I was just wondering if anyone's come across some data on it.

[dragonli]

Actually when humans first switched from a hunter/gathering society to an agrarian one...health and life expentance went down, due to poor diet and increased work expended to obtain food.  

Point taken -- but we're still here.  

'Cept that we're always depressed, grouchy, die mostly of cancer or heart disease, and spend half of our life at the doctor for some reason or another    I had thought that too, thinking "Hey, we survived on milk for thousands of years. You're not going to tell me it's bad for me!" Then when I cut it out I stopped hacking up a lung in the morning and dropped 40 lbs.

I'm just more concerned about the ratties though. Of all the pets that I've had, they seem to have the worst constitution. And since most people say that anything we eat they can eat, I wonder how close our metabolisms really are.

[Spiralgirl]

Point taken -- but we're still here.  

Yes, but only because agriculture allowed a surplus food supply...thereby releasing some segments of society from the gathering and production of food.  Giving us artists, potters, and eventually a "government" to control it all.

[Spiralgirl]

Also, as I thought about this topic.  I wonder if genetic engineering of our food supply has anything to do with people developing food allergies.

Just a thought.

[Yresim]

That would be soy, dairy, wheat, peanuts, chocolate, eggs, and corn.  (there are more, but these are the top offenders.)

Due to a combination of allergies and preferences, I don't get much soy, dairy, wheat, peanuts, chocolate, eggs, or corn.  And I am still the least healthy person I know.

I also get stomach aches almost every time I eat.  I'm essentially told its just my imagination, but I don't think it is.  I tried keeping a health diary for 6 months, but never found any correlation to any foods/ingredients and stomach aches.  Sometimes, I'll eat a cup of rice and feel okay.  Other times, I'll be in severe pain.  

I've tried cutting this food or that from my diet, taking this drug or that, etc.  Nothing helps: I am still just as unhealthy.  

My only point here is that diet is not the only source for bad health.  There's also just plain old bottom-of-the-barrel, my-parents-gave-me-every-single-weakness-they-had genetics.  

One of my friends joked that it is good I have such an unhealthy rat, because we can spend time together being sick.  

Humans and rats eat many of the same things because we are both omnivores.  Other omnivores have similar diets, as well.  We don't share most diseases, we have different temperature requirements, and we cannot interbreed (sorry, furries).  

Cats and dogs eat similar diets because they are both carnivores.  However, they still have a lot of phsiological differences (including allergies).

If I hade a donkey and a horse, I might assume that certain things (such as allergies) would be shared across both, because donkeys and horses are very similar and can interbreed (that is where asses come from).  However, I would not assume that just because my cat is allergic to honey, my dog is also allergic to honey.  Similarly, I would not assume that just because I am allergic to cat fur, my rats are also allergic to cat fur.

I would not want to cut grains from my rat's food on the off chance that it might help, unless I had a good reason.  Every indication we have seems to indicate that it is healthy for them.  I don't want to risk my pet on the basis of a theory.  Of course, what you do with your pets is (for the most part) up to you.  While I might report someone to the SPCA if they tried to drown their pets, I am not going to report someone for changing the pets' diet in good faith (NOTE: this excludes people who force their cats onto vegetarian diets, because they are doing it for themselves and not for the pets).

[joolzratbag]

I most certainly don't believe a whopping 50% of the population is allergic to wheat! Surely 5% is closer? I too would be interested to see an article - nutrition is one of my favourite subjects (second to rats of course!)

IMHO you have to weigh up the difference between allergies & intolerance.
Many people from the third world are incapable of digesting dairy products bcause they do not possess the enzyme lactase, which is necessary to break down milk sugars.
They are not allergic as such - they just can't digest it, because they have never used it as a food and therefore don't need to possess the enzyme. So it gives them diarrhoea.
On the other hand - I have 2 friends allergic to seafood & peanuts - if they eat them they could go into shock and die, without prompt treatment.

Fancy rats here in the UK have traditionally been fed bread and milk all last century, to supplement their diet - especially the breeding does and infants.
In 19 years of keeping almost a hundred rats as pets, I have not had a single rat that has had a problem with me feeding multigrain wholemeal bread on an almost daily basis, and occasional dairy products (mostly live natural yoghurt) as treats.

As far as other grains and cereals go, many wild rats appear to thrive on the grain stolen from farmers barns, fields, combine harvesters and silos!
Someone in the rat fancy over 20 years ago even fed her rats exclusively on corn! Whilst not recommended (I much prefer to give my rats a varied, well-balanced diet) - the rats were all healthy and lived long lives

I have seen far more damage caused to tame rats by giving them too much fat or protein in their diet.
Too much or too little protein will cause itchy scabs & bad coat condition, too much fat can cause itchy spots, tumours, obesity and heart disease.

For vegetarians, cereal grains are a vital part of the diet, you need 3 main food groups to be able to produce your own protein from the various amino acids - pulses, nuts and cereals.

Wheat allergy certainly does seem to be more common in people lately, and I point the finger at artificial chemicals such as fertilisers, insecticides and I really don't like the idea of GM. I buy organic for myself wherever I can, and all fruit & veg given to my rats is - just wish I could find an organic rat pellet or mix

[Ensie]

On the topic of diet, I am vegan (no meat, no dairy, no egg) and I buy as much organic food as I can to avoid GMOs. My rats get everything I eat, which includes vegetables, fruits, legumes, and grains. None of my rats have ever had any health problems, with one exception (a case of mycoplasma caused by pine bedding). I think the key is to make your/your rats' diet as healthy and balanced as possible.

I have to add this: My decision to become vegan is a long story, but from some research I did, I found out about some REALLY gruesome practices of raising and slaughtering animals for food -- this includes ALL standard brands of dog and cat food -- by the beef, poultry, dairy, and egg industries right here in good old U.S. of A. (And there is no such thing as a "humane" slaughter!) Something to consider if you are giving your rats dog food as part of their diet.

[kim]

ill just chime in on the dog food part-
the reasons why some of the ingredients you listed on the dog food labels, etc are bad isnt because they are allergens - it is because they are either undigestable or simply used as fillers. quality dog foods (look at innova for instance) contains grains, meats, and fruits and vegetables. what makes some of the dog foods unhealthy is not that they are too much grain - it is that they are not enough good food. meals, digests - i certainly wouldnt eat that stuff. some dog foods list "animal digest" on their labels - what animal is this exactly  
on a side note, i personally dont feed nutro much if at all now for a variety of these reasons and more. its certainly a better food then most, but i feed wysong and innova.
for a list of dog food ingredients and comparison, you can check out the whole dog journal or www.naturapets.com (this is the manufacturer of innova and california naturals).