EDIT: SO MUCH DRAMA!  The other boy is still choking!  I'm trying to follow the directions here: http://www.ratballs.com/RatTails/Tails098.html
but I'm also worrying that i'll have to resort to something outlined here, which seems dramatic and vaguely damaging to the rat: http://wererat.net/rathelp/choking.htm

he's not turning blue but he's gasping/choking.  I called two local vets, both are on emergency crew only and do not treat rats.  I offered him water on my finger and he just bit me softly, he's not foaming at the mouth or has any discharge.  he sounds like a tiny dog trying to hork up something.  he has periods where he's breathing fast but ok and then goes back to choking.  lordy, what a day.

ANOTHER EDIT: alright, in the time it took me to modify this post he seems to have hit another lull in the choking process.  my dad is watching him with me.  he's breathing fine, although occasionally twitches like he's hiccuping or something similar and he's settled down for some rest.  i'm just spazzing out all over the place trying to make sure everyone is AOK.
I can't figure out what he choked on, honestly.  there's nothing in or around the cage that my other rats hadn't chewed on before.  I guess he just ate a bit of lab block the wrong way or something.

Sorry for the multiple post edits going on, its just a crazy situation I guess.  For right now we're in the clear, i'd still love info on the scaly patch or what to do if his choking problem returns before the vet opens tomorrow.


I just brought home two adorable baby boys earlier today and have a question about a scaly patch I've been trying to diagnose.

Patch is about a half inch by half inch, below the shoulder blades and almost perfectly centered on the spine.  he's only attempting to scratch occasionally (it may just be part of normal cleaning procedures) but cannot reach the spot.  the skin is flaking off and is white with teeny flecks of what looks like either poryphorin or dried blood very infrequently in the skin flakes.  i tried an olive oil bath on both him and his brother (who has no symptoms) and that broke up the dead skin for the most part, which is now sluffing off the hair and new skin.  the skin underneath appears healthy and whiteish pink, and other than being wet (from the olive oil) the fur seems like it is neither thinning nor balding.  it may be shorter in length, but i think that's because the base of the fur is still slightly tangled with the dead skin thats coming off.
There is a very slight possibility that he was exposed to mites, however since none of his brothers or sisters (including the brother that came home with him) exhibit any symptoms of mites I'm inclined to think that's not quite it.  no dust, no itching, no balding/thinning patches or anything.  he's still very young, so tumors or abscesses are probably way out of the question, plus there is no growth or 'squishy bit' underneath it to suggest any kind of fluid gathering.

i googled 'rat mites' and 'rat scaly skin' and none of the descriptions matched what this little dude has.  it's completely contained in this one spot and is almost a perfect circle.  a chemical irritation came to mind, but it seems to me that whatever he could get into his siblings could too.  I'd love to hear especially if anyone thinks it COULD be mites, since the wonderful rescuer who I got the babies from wants to be sure she's treating all her rescues/fosters if it does turn out to be a case of mites.  she says her house is fairly dry, which leads me to wonder if there's any kind of rat eczema that could be made worse by stress (like coming to a new home) or low humidity.

If there is a serious problem that requires immediate vet attention PLEASE let me know, otherwise I'll keep him and his under observation and see what happens before we head to the vet.  there may well be no problem (or a problem that already healed) and the healthy skin underneath is fine, but like any parent with a new ratty baby I tend to err on the cautious side!

These boys are a bundle mischief, I tell you!  I was meandering around with the non-scaly brother on my shoulder in the Q-tine room and he started making an odd noise... i realized he was choking!  oy!  but he got rid of whatever he was choking on real quick and I watched him intently for 20 mins just to be sure! 
*phew*  I just know that once we get all this cleared up they'll be real lovers, though.  I think I got a good bruxing out of 'em both earlier.

Thanks for the help/opinions, I really appreciate it.  Here's to hoping that it's just dry skin.

Sounds like you have a boy with classic ringworm and he needs a vet.  You also may catch it so be very careful.  This is one of the things rats and humans can pass back and forth.  You had better start researching ringworm fast.

the skin sheds after a while, starts off as smooth and pink, but its the shedding skin that is seriously contagious.

chaa. please, bring those boys back here. If there's medical care to be done, you shouldn't have to pay it.  My vet is half the cost of yours, and I truly can't imagine that a serious URI developed between yesterday morning and this evening, especially when there isn't a single sneezing rat in this house. Also, I've looked over every rat he's come in close contact with, and I'm not seeing anything like a classic case of ringworm. I've had ringworm come in on rescues before, and know what it looks like.


I'm very sorry you're feeling this way, and certainly hope you and they form a lasting bond. If not, they're always welcome back here.

For those just joining this drama in progress, I did warn chaa and the other adopters that despite extensive socialization, the temperaments on these babies were not what I had hoped for. Who knows what the father was like - this was an emergency rescue litter that would have otherwise gone to the snakes in utero, and no matter how much I've handled them, they haven't come out being the kind of happy, outgoing bubs I would have liked. In fact, that's why I still have almost of them here, giving them the opportunity to "grow out of it," before deciding what to do with them. Part of the reason I let chaa adopt these two was that he said he owned a doe who had behaved like these bubs did when he acquired her, and that they'd work things out to where she was just fine.

Ditto. When one of my boys got pneumonia, the vet told me to keep a very close eye on my other rats because it was possible that the others would get it, but it wasn't a good idea to medicate them unless they were actually sick.  ((No one else ended up getting it BTW, and they were all in the same cage)) Antibiotics aren't a a good preventative. They're for using when there's bad stuff to kill!  If the ringworm theory is true, sometimes vets will give you a spray on medication, and I believe you can treat ALL the rats with that but I'm not positive...ask the vet.
So hopefully that will make you feel better about the vet bill. Take in the guy with the ringworm, and the guy with the respitory issue. No need to take everyone in. Did you by chance ask the vet if they have different pricing for multiple small animals at one check up? Some vets will do that and it will be cheaper. Besides the check up cost you'll probably be looking at a bill for the skin scraping, ringworm medication if that's what he has, antibiotics for the other guy, and maybe some time in an oxygen tank if he needs it. When my rat had pneumonia, the bill came to something like $140... but that was after an overnight stay in the oxygen tank which they charge by the hour. 

I'm really sorry I made waves here, I'm just worried about these guys.  Bluefrog, I've spoken to you via e-mail and you know in every way that I love those two boys and truly support what you're doing.  I'm happy to have them treated at my own cost and would never think that anything about your care was amiss, these things happen and they're probably not even a problem.

to Scout; you're absolutely right, I'm aware of that.  I was just freaking out in a 'worst case scenario' type deal.  Its up to my vet to determine treatment and I know she will do a great job and get my babies exactly what they need, which includes education for their owner on how to deal with these things 
I'll definitely bring everyone's opinions here to the table.

Nevadamoon, I really really appreciate your post.  I absolutely agree, there's nothing whatsoever wrong with the bubs Bluefrog graciously admitted to my care that could have been avoided.  Perhaps (like I said) there's nothing wrong with the patch on one of the boys back, and its just dry skin.  And like you say indeed, their coats are otherwise the shiniest i've seen on a baby bub!  I saw all the babies and they were all in perfect condition (but quite sleepy from the ride in the car  ) and had no problems whatsoever.

I fortunately have not had a rat in my care with an URI, so I honestly dont know what a URI sounds like.  But I've done hours of research and the descriptions I've found sound an awful lot like the sounds the baby is making at the moment, except he has no sneezes to speak of.  There's a total possibility (probability!) that I'm just an over-protective, worried new parent about these guys and the vet visit is just going to confirm the dry skin and an otherwise healthy pair of brothers.  However the way I best function regarding my pets is to expect the worst and treat a situation as such, that way they get all the treatment they could need and nothing less.  That does come out as me jumping the gun or the likes occasionally, as you can read in the thread above. Its a rather odd problem I have, I'm afraid! 

I had considered the possibility of something wrong with my care affecting the babies, but I noticed the skin issue right when they came out of the carrier from the car ride.  Unless there was some unseen allergen in the carrier (fleece and a towel in the carrier, open sided) that I hadn't anticipated, I couldn't figure out what could've caused it.  And the choking was absolutely in no way Bluefrog's issue, of course!! I have nothing but praise for everything she's doing and can't recommend her enough.  She's a fantastic mamma to each and every baby that goes through and everything she does with her fosters shows that.  If I (goodness forbid) send a rat to the bridge she's the first place I'd turn to rescue another hat and welcome them into my home (assuming, of course, she'd let me!).

And bluefrog speaks the truth regarding the socialization process!  I have dealt with a rat like these two babies before (in fact there's a thread where I gave progress updates waaay back somewhere), and am very excited to start on that process.  I'm just frustrated from lots of things going on like being unable to get them in to see a vet today (er... well, yesterday now, for all you midwest forum-goers) and worry that I've messed up horribly and such like that.  I of course realize that it's a process with every single rat, no matter how outgoing, and since dealing with one girl and having such immense rewards with seeing her grow more confident and such I have every assurance that these two will be no different.  Like I said, it's just a bit of a change going from a trio of bonded rats who rush to the front of the cage when I come in to a pair of rats I'm trying desperately to help that just cower in the corner.  That's all I meant by that.  They're absolute sweethearts, and very active (so long as I'm at a safe distance from the cage, of course).  I couldn't have asked for anything better.  Bluefrog helped me pick the two very perfect bubs for my family and I wouldn't trade them for anything.

*sigh*
I feel like I'm nothing but trouble around here.  I do over-react about the health of my rats, its a big flaw and I know it.  Just... I know I'll probably dig myself another hole somewhere, but in the end it comes down to the fact that I'm insanely happy with the boys and just being a fuss over their wellbeing.  I didn't mean to offend anyone and certainly didn't intend to put the babies in a bad light, and especially not bluefrog.

If it's worth anything, the scaly patch hasn't changed much.  It's still flaking off a bit but there's no redness, swelling, or bleeding to speak of.  And the other boy is still gurgling with each breath but has no sneezing or discharge at all.  It looks like i just had a bad case of 'new parent jump the gun', but I'm still happy I got them a vet appt.
regarding the bill, I do use another vet who is usually a $35 visit, but to get them in within the week I had to go to another vet (NESS exotics) so they could be seen sooner by a rat specialist.  I checked in with a tech and it'll be $52 for the visit with an additional $29 for the second brother, so it's a lot better than I had originally thought. 

again, sorry for stepping in toes.  its the last thing I wanted to do, and i apologize.  bluefrog, my apologies for unintentionally criticizing you, I really hadn't considered that as a side-effect.

I didn't meant to sound offensive/combative, so I'm glad it wasn't taken that way. (That's what you get writing up responses in the middle of the night.    )

I simply wanted to try and point out that you shouldn't be so quick to assume it could be ringworm, and I was honestly just so surprised that the health in siblings could be so different just days after being apart.  I'll definitely be interested to see what the vet determines it is.  It's just, with the ringworm assumption, none of us have seen pictures nor the rats, and I know that if BlueFrog had seen any flakey skin type patches when getting the boys ready to see you, she would have brought it to your attention at the very least.  It's so easy to worry over something- I do it allllllll the time.  But it's usually a lot easier to just try and stay calm, and wait for the vets' diagnosis. 

And I wasn't trying to say that you didn't care for these boys, as you obviously wouldn't have even posted had you not cared.  But the comment (Though I'm sure you didn't mean it badly) just really caught me off guard.  Maybe we just think differently, but I just would never feel an animal was being a trouble for something they couldn't control- like illness or personality.  I feel the same way about my kid- He's a pain in the butt some days, but I never doubt that it's worth it.  (Though, I didn't have a long labor, not even close to 36 hours.     Maybe I'd feel differently if we'd started out on that foot.)

Also, I didn't meant to imply there was some kind of fault or something wrong with the care you'd provided.  I'm definitely far from an expert, myself. I was simply trying to show that maybe you should check out your environment at your house, and see if there might be a cause there that could have added/affected to this.  Like, you say you had fleece and a towel in there- what kind of detergent do you use?  Could it be possible it had some kind of fragrance/something to it that could have irritated the skin or caused a dry patch?

I don't want you to think that you're causing trouble, because this forum is great for resources.  But you should always try to take the information with a grain of salt, and rely more on what your vet says, as none of us (To my knowledge) are vets, and while many are experienced, without pictures/video/whatever to go on, any diagnostic stuff isn't always going to be accurate.

I certainly hope everything gets figured out with those boys.   

FYI: For anyone who has to deal with ringworm, Selsun Blue shampoo is a wonderful antifungal.  I learned about it back when I was showing my Himalayan cat, Cosette.  The only time we had ringworm was the one time I didn't bath her with it after a show.

I'm glad you got these bubs to the vet!  If the vet only prescribed you one medication (likely Baytril?) for the pneumonia, please watch carefully to make sure that within a few days there is significant improvement.

I don't know the situation, but I do know that transporting rats and stressing rats out can most certainly sometimes lead to respiratory infections in prone individuals.  I have dealt with far far too many respiratory problems, and BlueFrog I can guarantee you that I have seen a full blown pneumonia (rush to the ER at midnight!) rat who showed no previous signs the day before.  Sometimes these things just happen!  It sucks but that is the world of rats for you.

Im so glad to hear that you figured out what was wrong with the babies, I know it can be so stressful as a new ratty parent to not know what exactly is going on. As for the "not knowing if it was worth it" part, I completely understand having gone through it with my first boys, Roscoe and Skrat. It took literally months to get them to come out of their shell, now they abhor being in the cage, and bang the cage door every time I walk past to get out. Many, many times during those first few months, I asked myself if it was worth it...now, its like it was all a dream. Other than looking the same, its like these are two completely different rats, outgoing, loving, cuddly, whereas before they were skittish, terrified and VERY antisocial. Good luck with the new bubs, Chaa..its tough at times, but so very rewarding, isnt it? )  :cookie:s to your new babies, and congratulations on your boys!