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The Dog House => Dog Care Corner => Topic started by: ~Lin on April 29, 2006, 10:27:56 PM

Title: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on April 29, 2006, 10:27:56 PM
I am in the process of changing my dogs food over to Natures Variety Feed. Right now she is on mixed kibble, the new in with the old. She is still on the old canned food, I haven't begun that switch yet. I was planning on feeding her kibble and canned daily, with Natures Variety raw diet supplemented in, every couple days. She has had 2 of the raw diet patties so far, one 3 days ago and one yesterday. Today, she had diarrhea. And, all over the floor in the guest bedroom. I never go in there, and I wouldn't have even found it for a while except I smelled it. The litter box never smell that bad, so I went to investigate. So... I'm assuming there is something shocking her system here. Like I said, I havent changed the canned food yet, and the kibble is being switched over slowly. So it must be having given her the raw diet. I didn't think I was giving her too much too soon, so, advice?

Lin
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: dragynflye on May 05, 2006, 02:36:16 PM
when you switch to a raw diet, the dogs will often go through a detox period....  massive diareah, maybe some weight loss, their coat might look a bit splotchy, ect...  exact signs vary by dog.  it can last any where from a couple of days to a couple of weeks.....  not fun!  i had two great danes and a saint bernard all detoxing at the same time!  but trust me, a raw diet truely is healthier and sooooooo much worth it!  good luck!

and here is a link to my dane forum's raw room.  loooooots of helpful information on diet, and a great place to post any questions you might have....  don't worry, they'll forgive you for not having a dane!  :D
http://www.danesonline.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=196
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: *Kat* on May 11, 2006, 10:12:45 AM
Can you explain to me what the raw diet consists of?
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on May 11, 2006, 10:20:30 AM
Raw meat...
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: *Kat* on May 11, 2006, 10:29:51 AM
What kinds?  how much, still feed dry and can food to?
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on May 11, 2006, 10:38:44 AM
I don't know the amounts, usualy a variety of kinds. You can make your own raw diet by grinding up the meat yourself, or theres a prepackaged raw diet from Natures Variety which is what I'm using. I'm a veggie, so I don't want to handle meat. With this I thaw a patty and feed. And with still feeding canned and dry, is up to you. Many people love raw diets, and it is what our canine and feline friends are meant to eat. I think Kim feeds purely raw, I was hoping she would respond in this thread. I can't give up the convience of kibble, so I'm still feeding dry. Canned food is a much better option over dry food, better nutrition and also better for hydration. So I feed both canned and dry daily, and want to feed raw as sort of a treat, a raw patty every 2 days or so. The feed I'm using for both my cats and dog, Natures Variety, also has a raw diet biocoating on the kibble. It contains the probiotics and enzymes that are found in raw diets..
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: dragynflye on May 11, 2006, 11:09:13 AM
processed raw meat is usually not very good.  grinding it can mix bacteria and contaminants into the meat.  also, one of the main benefits of a raw diet is.... THE BONES!  they help clean the teeth (making the breath smell better) and help clean out the intestinal track.  raw, uncooked bones are totally healthy for your dogs.  you should avoid cooked, process bones (including the smoked ones at pet stores) because the splinter.  raw bones are not dried out and are flexible, so they break when your dog chews them, but won't splinter.  you use a variety of meats.... lots of chicken, with turkey, beef, pork, lamb..... whatever you have available to you.  also organ meat.  all this may sound terribly expensive, but it's truly not.... i fed my four dogs (two great danes, a saint bernard and a min pin) a raw diet for about $50-$75 a month, i was paying close to $200 a month for high quality dog food before i switched.  check out the link i posted earlier..... tooooons of great info!

oh, and no, you can't feed kibble and raw.....  they digest at different rates.  because dogs have a short digestive system, raw meat doesn't sit long enough to cause problems with bacteria.  however, kibble digests much more sloooooooowly, so if you feed kibble and raw, the kibble slows the digestive process and causes the meat to sit in the stomach much longer, which can lead to problems such as salmonella.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on May 11, 2006, 11:36:04 AM
The Natures Variety raw diet is complete, with bones. About processed, every recipe Ive seen for make your own raw involves grinding?

I didn't know that about feeding kibble and raw at the same time, what should I do about all the raw patties I have? I haven't fed it since my dog had that diarrhea. She had it TWICE on my carpet, and once on my kitchen tile. I still need to go out and rent a carpet cleaner because I dont think I did a good enough job by hand. And my house has NEW carpet. I was not a happy momma... I have a raw patty defrosting that I was going to feed tonight. I thought feeding in smaller amounts would help, I had given the whole patty before, my plans tonight were 1/2 to the dog, with 1/4 to each of my cats.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: dragynflye on May 11, 2006, 12:48:34 PM
nope, no grinding necessary!  i'd have a freezer full of meat, take out one day's food, put it in the fridge to start defrosting and one day's food in the sink to finish thawing.  crunching up the whole bones is not only fun for them, but keeps their mouth clean.  you would be amazed at how much better the breath of a raw-fed dog smells over that of a kibble puppy!  and passing the bones also helps keep their anal glands cleared out.  there is no real "recipe" needed for feeding a complete raw diet.... just thaw and feed!  some people think veggies are a necessity, but in reality dogs don't get much nutritional value from them.  i give mine veggies every once in a while, mainly because they like them!  the diarrhea will continue until she's use to her diet one way or the other.  you need to decide what you want to do, and, unfortunately, deal with the diarrhea for a while.  when you switch brands of kibble, you do so gradually to reduce the shock on their system and help prevent/minimize the side effects.  but when switching to raw, "weaning" them on to will prolong the detox effects and can lead to other problems, like i mentioned, salmonella.  if you wanted to keep feeding kibble and give a small bit of a patty as a treat every once in a while, i don't think that would be a problem.  if you really want to mix the two diets, you need to keep at least 8 hours between a kibble meal and a raw meal.  kibble takes about 8 hours to digest, raw takes (i think) approximately 4.  otherwise, if you decide to stick with kibble and you've got tons of these patties, try donating them to a shelter or rescue or some such.  and sorry i'm rambling.... i tend to do that!  i go off on tangents and include whatever info pops into my head whether it's relevant or not and some how forget what i was originally trying to say!  this is why i am not a good teacher....  i have a hard time sticking to or reachin a single point!
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on May 11, 2006, 06:54:02 PM
I'll feed them as a treat then, in the small amounts. 1/2 a patty should be fine fed with kibble? She gets free access to her kibble. I can't give them away... They were too expensive for one, and for a second one all the shelters I know around me don't usualy even feed canned, much less raw. They take only kibble donations. And then 1/4 a patty ok per cat? I hope they don't get diarrhea, I haven't tried them on the raw except they took a couple bites before Tessa ate hers. I don't want to switch completely over raw... I'm a vegetarian and cannot handle meat on a daily basis. I have no problem doing it once a year for something special (I cooked christmas dinner one year, with turkey and ham. I also mad a 5 cheese lasagna for myself...) But the smell of meat makes me nauseous (raw isnt as bad as cooked, and you should see me gag when I opened the canned food!) and I am quite squeamish about touching it. The patties look like large hamburgers, I just pull them out and thaw and feed. Natures Variety suggests a rotation of protein, switching from a stable of dry, to canned, to raw everytime you rebuy food. I don't understand how that would work if it takes a detoxing time everytime to go to raw? I wasn't planning on that anyway, I just have a 5 gallon gravity feeder plus I feed a can nightly, usualy just before bedtime.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on May 12, 2006, 01:29:12 PM
im going to disagree.

many dogs can and do eat kibble AND raw - there is no conclusive evidence that there is anything wrong with this. most dogs that get diarrhea when switching to raw, will get it irregardless if they get kibble or raw at the same time, or go cold turkey.

many people i know feed kibble one meal, and raw the next.

in addition, while i personally feed more of the prey style, there is NOTHING wrong with ground bones and mixtures that contain such. many people are not willing, able, or ready to feed huge whole rabbits, whole turkeys, or whole sides of beef. others may not have access to them, others cannot store them.

i personally have an older female with few teeth, and she NEEDS ground most of the time beacuse i cannot get a variety into her in RMBs beacuse she cannot digest them since she is unable to chew them.

i have switched 4 dogs cold turkey to raw with no problems. i have also intermittently fed kibble and grain-y treats to some (bowie at some kibble in the first 4 months he was switched almost 4 years ago). rah continues to get kibble (EVO) as training treats, as well as other pretty gross treats simply because we go through SO MANY.

lin, sorry i didnt see this thread sooner, i musta been blind! there are tons of ways to feed raw - in fact, i personally had a FAQ i believe about how i feed it, and answering some basic questions... i thought it was over on the dog board, ill search for it.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on May 12, 2006, 02:54:12 PM
About time you got here Kim!! The night I posted this you were in chat, but not in chat. I posted the link and asked you to check it out but I guess it was just a ghost of your user. So the way I was planning is fine? To feed kibble and canned daily and every other day give a patty? Do you think the diarrhea will resolve? Today she got her 3rd patty, I hadn't fed the raw since the diarrhea before... And I'm going to keep a hawks eye on her and take her outside extra often to make sure if she has problems again its not on my floor! Id like to supplement the raw in, but I can't afford it as primary plus like Ive said I like the convience of kibble. And I'm one of those people that will NOT deal with a whole whatever raw.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on May 13, 2006, 04:39:49 AM
Ok... I have some questions. I bought some frozen raw bones? Do you know if I thaw them? I'm assuming so.. They don't say anything about feeding directions lol. I was thinking give her one in her crate when I leave, so she doesn't make a mess (they do have some meat, very little) and an added reason for her to be happy in her crate. I'm thinking when I finish the prepared patties, maybe just buying whatever meat is on sale at the grocery store... Since its not her staple diet, I could just get whatever and give it as a treat? I just don't know how Id deal with that, I REALLY don't like handling meat.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: *Kat* on May 13, 2006, 07:34:00 AM
I don't know if this will help, but really feeding the prepared, you are already handling meat, so if you can handle that I would think you can handle it in other forms.  Just try to adjust to it and deal if that is what you want to feed them from time to time.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on May 13, 2006, 08:08:44 AM
by prepared do you mean the patties? I know I'm handling meat, and it smells like meat, and thats hard. But it doesnt LOOK like meat. (looks like a hamburger yes, but not say a whole chicken..) I've cooked a whole turkey before, but I was very squeamish (I wouldn't touch it without gloves lol) and that was a one time thing, rather than something regularly... I will try then, and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on May 14, 2006, 02:31:38 PM
thats odd, i find handling the huge raw meaty bones less gross than handling the ground stuff :) and the whole raw stuff tends to smell better!

Quote
... I have some questions. I bought some frozen raw bones? Do you know if I thaw them? I'm assuming so..

depends on your dog. some of my dogs have not liked cold bones, but most of them will eat bones frozen out of the freezer. rah gets MOST of this things frozen because that way it takes him a lot longer to eat :)

Quote
They don't say anything about feeding directions lol.

im assuming what you got is a recreational bone - mostly bone with little else on it - in which case there are no "instructions" as its really just a treat.

Quote
I was thinking give her one in her crate when I leave, so she doesn't make a mess (they do have some meat, very little) and an added reason for her to be happy in her crate.

that is upt o you, but personally my dogs are NEVER left alone with ANY bone or ANYTHING to chew on while i am gone - its way too easy to choke or get something stuck somewhere. my dogs only get bones and things to chew when i am around to monitor them and make sure they are chewing. rah is currently working on a whole buffalo tail, one of his favorites - and he is in the crate and im watching him to make sure hes ok and chewing normally.

 
Quote
I'm thinking when I finish the prepared patties, maybe just buying whatever meat is on sale at the grocery store... Since its not her staple diet, I could just get whatever and give it as a treat? I just don't know how Id deal with that, I REALLY don't like handling meat.

you can theoretically feed almost anything from the foodstore as LONG AS the bones are big and something she would need to chew. i dont buy things that have cut bone shards in them, as i find them to dangerously sharp (ie no pieces of steak with bone in, pork chops, etc). things like whole chickens, ducks, turkey, game hens, whole pork roasts, beef ribs, etc.

buy something larger than her head and it requires that she chew :)
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: elegy on May 14, 2006, 07:55:01 PM
my two cents (late as usual) on the kibble and raw thing is that i started feeding kibble for breakfast and raw at night, then switched to completely raw, and am now back to feeding probably 75% kibble meals and 25% raw meals, and the only time i've ever had any problem was the night i fed the canned food that i got for free :p

i do feed my dogs frozen recreational bones. everything else i thaw. and i do leave recreational bones with them alone in their crates. i know there's a risk, but i have to leave them *something* to do when i leave.

i was totally squicked out by the whole handling of raw meat in the beginning, but i got used to it. the only thing that really bothers me is liver.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on May 21, 2006, 10:57:23 PM
Ok, I have a question/concern. I am feeding Amos some raw bits here and there. However, I am very concerned with the antibiotics and hormones added in commercial meats. Does that seem to affect dogs and defeat the purpose of a "natural" diet? I don't even know WHERE I could find all natural meats with no added hormones or antibiotics. I don't think it would be cost effective to be buying raw meats and such that are all organic. It'd probably cost me $100 a month to feed the dog. :shocked2:
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on May 21, 2006, 11:00:38 PM
without getting into it since i am exhausted -
do you think the meat in the dog food is at all higher quality? the meat used in dog food is usually not even fit for human consumption.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on May 21, 2006, 11:00:51 PM
For all natural meats and such, youd need to look for them to be labeled Organic. Around here, the only place to find organic meats is at a health food store. Theres a large chain, Whole Foods where you can get organic and healthy food at reasonable prices. I used to go when I lived in Texas, but back in Indiana we don't have it.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: *Kat* on May 21, 2006, 11:12:30 PM
the meat used in dog food is usually not even fit for human consumption.

Begin the stoning - raw meat isn't fit for human consumption either.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on May 21, 2006, 11:14:29 PM
But the only reason raw meat wouldnt be 'fit' for human consumption, is being raw. Not the quality of the meat. However, humans are the only animals that cook their meat before eating it. So its perfectly normal for a dog to consume raw meat.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: GinKaruja on May 22, 2006, 04:56:46 AM


Begin the stoning - raw meat isn't fit for human consumption either.
[/quote]
Detour....No, *mishandled* raw meat isn't fit for human consumption.  I prefer my red meat cold in the middle or cooked on only one side, no matter how much it may disgust people.  Plenty of people around the world will eat raw, or very nearly raw meat, and there are plenty of raw dishes served worldwide.  Steak tartar and sushi for example.  Not to mention most dried meat was dried from raw.  Many of the problems comes from meat(of any kind) that has been left sitting out too long, isn't fresh, or hasn't been kept cold enough.  Most people are just so paranoid these days it's absurd.  Life is full of risks, I'm not going to sacrifice flavor just because my fiance goes 'you're gonna get sick', it's my choice.  I do not eat undercooked poultry or pork, something about the flavor of poultry, and domestic pork...~shudders~ I can't often eat even fully cooked pork other than bacon.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: trubandloki on May 22, 2006, 07:47:42 AM
the meat used in dog food is usually not even fit for human consumption.

Begin the stoning - raw meat isn't fit for human consumption either.

I know people who prefer their meat raw and will eat it that way...... So......
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on May 22, 2006, 09:24:36 PM
if you had the optoin to eat cooked but diseased, downed piece of cow, or a piece of raw humanely raised healthy cow, which would you eat?

like ginka said, humans around the world eat raw things all the time. but i dont know of ANY culture/group that eats kibble :)
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: *Kat* on May 22, 2006, 09:29:36 PM
Dogs and cats are not human.  No - I wouldn't eat a piece of raw meat - if need be, I'd not be eating either.  Dogs and cats in the wild do eat raw - but those are fresh - still warm - just killed raw.  Plus we do not have wild animals in our homes.  Breeding has changed a lot.  The animals we have in our homes are not their wild counter parts.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on May 22, 2006, 10:41:31 PM
no, dogs and cats are not human. they remain canine and felines. and they remain carnivores. their teeth have not changed. their GI tract has not changed. their nutritional needs have not changed.

the cats and dogs we have in our homes are not so far from the wild animals as we would like to think. they have not "evolved" so much. They were, and still are, designed to eat meat. We have done them a disservice in the past 50 years, by creating pelletized so called "complete" diets for them, which are lacking in variety, nutrients, and simple physical properties that encourage and promote a healthy mouth and a healthy dog. we fed dogs for hundreds upon hundreds of years prior to kibble and they did fine. we have become lazy and would rather rely on ripping a bag open than making an effort to feed our animals appropriately.

breeding hasnt changed anything on the inside - we have altered their external appearance, but they haven't become anything except what they already were - dogs and cats. my dogs and cats are carnivores. they were not designed to eat pellets or kibble.


i believe firmly that feeding a proper species appropriate diet promotes optimum health.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: *Kat* on May 22, 2006, 10:48:08 PM
no, dogs and cats are not human. they remain canine and felines. and they remain carnivores. their teeth have not changed. their GI tract has not changed. their nutritional needs have not changed.

the cats and dogs we have in our homes are not so far from the wild animals as we would like to think. they have not "evolved" so much. They were, and still are, designed to eat meat. We have done them a disservice in the past 50 years, by creating pelletized so called "complete" diets for them, which are lacking in variety, nutrients, and simple physical properties that encourage and promote a healthy mouth and a healthy dog. we fed dogs for hundreds upon hundreds of years prior to kibble and they did fine. we have become lazy and would rather rely on ripping a bag open than making an effort to feed our animals appropriately.

breeding hasnt changed anything on the inside - we have altered their external appearance, but they haven't become anything except what they already were - dogs and cats. my dogs and cats are carnivores. they were not designed to eat pellets or kibble.


i believe firmly that feeding a proper species appropriate diet promotes optimum health.

Are they teaching this is Vet classes now?
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on May 22, 2006, 11:41:37 PM
Are they teaching this is Vet classes now?

You don't need to take vet classes to know what Kim is saying is right. Just do the research.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on May 23, 2006, 12:09:22 AM
teach what? that dogs and cats are carnivores? yup - 4 years confirmed what i already knew. those carnassial teeth aren't used for mushing up clover :)

your thinly veiled attempt at a potshot at me doesn't change anything, try again  - i dont have to be a vet, to know that proper nutrition is crucial to overall health of an animal OR a person. you dont have to be a vet to know that dental disease is one of the most prevalent (THE most prevalent, in some polls) disease our animals suffer from. you dont have to be a vet to know that our pets are carnivores, and that in every other species - cows, horses, lizards, wildlife, other exotic pets- we acknowledge that dietary and husbandry issues are one of, if not THE, TOP CAUSE of disease for these pets. it just so happens that i AM a vet, but that doesn't change the truth of what I am saying.

ive got to go to bed - maybe i will catch some national geographic, checking out those lions hunting bags of eukanuba. or do they prefer whiskas?  :cheeky:
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: menagerie on May 23, 2006, 12:14:03 AM
Are they teaching this is Vet classes now?

You don't need to take vet classes to know what Kim is saying is right. Just do the research.

I learned to feed raw from a local holistic vet, I'd been doing research for a while and she simplified the whole process for me. I feed mostly raw but have a premium kibble for emergencies and as treats for when the dogs go in their crates. I'd say they get 90-95% raw.

I too, believe in feeding a species specific foods. I have five different species at my house and they all get as close to a natural whole food diet as possible. For the dogs that means a diet of raw meat.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: trubandloki on May 23, 2006, 08:41:24 AM
ive got to go to bed - maybe i will catch some national geographic, checking out those lions hunting bags of eukanuba. or do they prefer whiskas?  :cheeky:

Giggle!

I can just hear the whispering commentator describe the attack as the paper is shredded from the outside of the bag....

giggle!


Kim and you other smart raw diet people....

I agree that raw is best, but I am not in a position to feed raw right now (NO freezer space at all, we don't even have an ice cube tray in there, it is so crowded).

When we move I plan to buy a chest freezer and look around for the availability of appropriate things to feed raw.

At that point my dog will be 9yo, is it too late to switch her over? Am I best to just finish her life on kibble (good quality kibble)?  She is a choker/gulper, would it be too much of a risk to feed her raw with bones?
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on May 23, 2006, 12:59:22 PM
I checked out a potential place I could get raw items and the conversation was pretty much doomed before it started. The guy asked what I wanted the raw items for and I said I was looking into feeding my dog a raw diet. Some other things were said, and the conversation ended with him saying "Why don't you just raise rabbits for him?" because I mentioned Amos is a beagle and does not need 40 lbs of turkey necks (which is all they could've sold me cause they make more money off the peices they smoke and sell for dogs). I said I will not breed and butcher rabbits for my dog and thanked him for his time and walked out. >:( I don't know where I can find raw meaty bones. The grocery store offers cuts of beef. I can get chicken for him as whole carcasses but beef, pork, and lamb are another story. Sigh.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on May 23, 2006, 01:37:53 PM
I was asking if the idea of the raw diet is now being presented at vet school, I have not seen any vet offices that encourage this idea.  I'm glad that you knew all before you went in, but I was wondering if this idea of raw diet is being presented now.

You act like raw diet is new? Asking how its being presented? Raw diet is THE original diet. THE correct diet. Its what cats and dogs are meant to eat. Still. Doesn't matter that they are domesticated, what happens when you have an indoor/outdoor animal? They hunt. Its natural. They often wont eat it, but thats because they are stuffed from junk food that they are being fed. Theres another vet encouraging raw diet at www.catinfo.org and she has some very informative pages.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on May 23, 2006, 06:14:28 PM
dr. tom lonsdale is a vet (author of raw meaty bones promote health).

dr. ian billinghurst is a vet (author and spearhead of the BARF movement and books).

i am certainly not alone.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on May 23, 2006, 08:52:13 PM
what difference does it make? is the start and end of one's education specifically what comes out of a professor's mouth? im sorry, but i believe education is more than one persons beliefs on a topic. nutrition education in vet school is limited at best, though my school spends more time than others. there is no consensus, and many clinicians are not familiar with the diet, others do not believe in it, and others feel that there is some severe lacking in current nutrition and thought, and believe that feeding a species appropriate diet is best.

and for the record kat, im not addressing you in my last post. i dont care what you *asked*, i was responding to lin.

would you care to share what you think and what you have been taught regarding animal nutrition, specifically companion animals?
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: *Kat* on May 23, 2006, 10:28:32 PM
what difference does it make? is the start and end of one's education specifically what comes out of a professor's mouth? im sorry, but i believe education is more than one persons beliefs on a topic. nutrition education in vet school is limited at best, though my school spends more time than others. there is no consensus, and many clinicians are not familiar with the diet, others do not believe in it, and others feel that there is some severe lacking in current nutrition and thought, and believe that feeding a species appropriate diet is best.

and for the record kat, im not addressing you in my last post. i dont care what you *asked*, i was responding to lin.

would you care to share what you think and what you have been taught regarding animal nutrition, specifically companion animals?

College / vet school education is not ONE professor.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: trubandloki on May 24, 2006, 06:36:30 AM
I'm missing the point of why there is an argument....

I someone is thinking of raw diet, I would suggest they discuss it with their own personal vet before starting.  Learn when their personal vet has to say about it.

Why do we care where Kim learned what she learned about Raw diet and if it came from her college education or from some other source?  I am so missing why this matters.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on May 24, 2006, 10:44:20 AM
I'm missing the point of why there is an argument....

I someone is thinking of raw diet, I would suggest they discuss it with their own personal vet before starting.  Learn when their personal vet has to say about it.

Why do we care where Kim learned what she learned about Raw diet and if it came from her college education or from some other source?  I am so missing why this matters.

Me too. :confused:
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on May 24, 2006, 10:57:32 AM
Obviously its not one professor Kat - apparently I missed where any of us implied that was the case? My point (which everyone else seems to get) is that there are many people involved - so why would you think they would all agree on every single topic?  And part of higher education, is learning to THINK on your own, and figuring out what the flaws are in each argument, and how to critically evaluate the theories, the opinions, the hypothesis, and determining where you stand. And again, just because a professor did not state something, or does not believe in something, or DOES believe in something, does not make it true, factual, or right.

And again, what are your beliefs on nutrition, what is best for our companion animals, and what they were designed to eat?
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Kya_Blue on May 24, 2006, 01:07:57 PM
Hello, I am fairly new to the board, but have been interested in the Raw Diet since I heard of it.  I will discuss it with my vet, etc., but the benefits sound wonderful. 

My concern is rather odd, but here goes- we have some pet chickens and I wanted to be sure that this wouldn't encourage our little girl puppers to be agressive toward them.  Likely, diet will not change their prey drive toward small animals, but better safe right? 

In addition, our little ladys are all under 15 lbs. I tried to check back through to find out but I may have missed it- what percentage of their body weight would I feed in raw meat?

Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on May 24, 2006, 04:31:48 PM
kya, there is a raw feeding FAQ that i wrote up that will explain how much to feed, etc.

if your dogs arent chasing and eating the chickens now, then it shouldnt change for them :)



and trub, sorry i missed it before - but its NEVER too late to switch :)
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: trubandloki on May 25, 2006, 06:41:03 AM
and trub, sorry i missed it before - but its NEVER too late to switch :)

I will start now... getting the hubby thinking about it..... that way when I want to switch them over he will not be all shocked....
thanks!
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on May 25, 2006, 09:28:21 AM
willow was switched to a raw diet at 8.5 years old when the rescue got her (i just continued it).
Mya was switched at 6-7 years old, and went from a very poor picky eater to a dog that would eat her meals 80% of the time and finish faster than Bowie!
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Kya_Blue on May 25, 2006, 12:49:24 PM
Thanks for the reply.  I don't know how I overlooked the other thread. 

I'm sure Copper Henny will roost better knowing that the pups will not now be overly interested in her.  :laugh:

It's good to hear that the diet can work for any age, because one of our pups is 11!
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on May 26, 2006, 06:10:57 PM
Ok this is freaking me out. Amos ate some raw chicken last night, a small wing (like the buffulo chicken ones) and a leg. He crunches the bones up well, or so I thought, but this morning I found that he had puked up some bone fragments.. many of which were VERY pointy and sharp. Do I need to feed him bigger pieces of chicken with the bone or is it a problem with his chewing (ie not thorough enough)? This is the second time this has happened, the first time though he ate some grass and puked it up plus some bone pieces. Maybe it was the bones all along. Anyone else have this problem? Oh and there was alot of mucus in his stool today. I wonder if those sharp bone pieces are cutting him up inside. :(
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on May 26, 2006, 08:23:40 PM
it sounds like you need to give amos something he actually needs to fully chew - wings are very small and if a dog doesnt chew well, they can just swallow them whole.

i wouldnt worry much about the bones - my dogs have on and off vomited up a few things - bowie would vomit up turkey whenever he ate it, mya would vomit up chicken whenever she ate it. just last week rah vomited up 6 lbs of beef ribs that he ate too fast (that was gross).

a lot of dogs also vomit up when there is too much bone (which is also true with wings - not enough meat!).

the mucousy stools may have also just been to what you fed him - ltos of dogs go through some stool issues when they transition over to the diet (though some DONT - i have to admit, im on my fourth dog transitioned to the raw diet and none of them have had any prblem making the transition). there may have been too much fatty skin in there, etc.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on July 09, 2006, 10:55:52 PM
Thought I would update for anyone considering a raw diet. Amos has been eating raw for over a month now and is healthier than I ever could've imagined. His coat is silky, shiny, and he BARELY sheds AT ALL. I brush and brush hoping to get some old dead hair out but I get nothing. Just silky fur running thru the comb. I've had to adjust the amount of food he gets a few times after he started getting alittle fat (he's slimming down now though) but I 'm pretty sure I've got it figured out. I love the flexability of the diet to adjust the amounts and when I am not going to be home around dinner time I can feed him his whole amount for the day and he's fine. His breath doesn't smell, he doesn't smell, and his itching is GONE. When he was on commercial food he'd itch miserably. I switched him on raw and a few times he did get dog food when my mom forgot he was on a raw diet (habit of feeding kibble with her dogs) and I would be able to tell he received kibble without her telling me because he itched and itched. He's been thru detox, hasn't puked anymore and his poo has been normal looking, not too dry or too mushy. He has more energy now (does a beagle REALLY need more energy though?) and I truly love shopping for him and making the disgusting vegetable/ground meat patties for him. :P I also feel I have a stronger bond with him because I can participate in his meal time (cutting up small boneless meat pieces and creating activities for him while he's still getting his dinner) instead of just setting down a bowl of kibble and him inhaling it. This was the best for my dog. I'm so grateful for this topic that introduced me to it and everyone who has helped us along the way.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on July 10, 2006, 11:03:37 AM
glad hes done so well :) does this mean youre KEEPING him :)
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: osutigeress on July 10, 2006, 11:15:25 AM
I got into this late, and just kind of skimmed the posts, but, my two cents...I believe a raw diet can work if you have the time and discuss it with a vet...I had a prof who was a vet and she told us horror stories about people bringing malnourished dogs fed a homemade raw diet to her practice and removing bones from dog's throats from people who just kind of made it up as they go....she was very anti-raw diet for that reason...but, suggested if you absolutely must feed a raw diet, grind the chicken up bones and all.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on July 10, 2006, 12:15:51 PM
every person is entitled to their opinion. the fact remains you will not easily find a vet well educated on the topic, period - and if you arent well educated on the topic, its hard to give an educated opinion :)

theres no reason to grind up the bones at all -just today rah had a whole chicken. yesterday he ate a whole rabbit.

thats why god gave them teeth :)
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: osutigeress on July 10, 2006, 02:19:31 PM


theres no reason to grind up the bones at all -just today rah had a whole chicken. yesterday he ate a whole rabbit.

thats why god gave them teeth :)

I think her reasoning for grinding up the bones was due to the fact she'd pulled so many out of dogs' throats.

I'm honestly not pro or con...my theory is "to each his own" if you feed your dog a proper raw diet, great, if your dog is on a raw diet and is skinny, find what you're missing, or switch back to Eukanuba.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: 1lila1 on July 15, 2006, 07:12:15 PM
I have some questions about the raw diet:

1.  Can I give my dog a chicken or turkey neck or back everyday while she is on kibble?  She gets her main meal in the morning but I was thinking of giving her a piece of a raw meaty bone each night while I research and decide if I want to do the full raw diet.

2.  I feed her Eagle Pack Holistic Select both dry and canned right now.  She is healthy, is 7 years old, and people often mistake her for a puppy.  If there are no problems how would a raw diet improve her general condition?

3. I spend about $40-$50 a month on food.  Would this be aprox. what I'd pay on a raw diet?

Thanks
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on July 17, 2006, 02:10:56 AM
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm (http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm)

This is a good FAQs page. I've been feeding raw for over a month now and I'm just starting to find the right places to buy food for cheap. It takes some tweaking in the diet to find the good deals but it costs about as much per month as a high quality food, often times ceaper. Amos eats around $40 a month but now I have a place to buy much cheaper chicken and I hunt the almost expired meats out too.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: 1lila1 on July 17, 2006, 05:37:54 PM
Thanks, that page looks really interesting.  The raw diet seems so simple.  The hard part seems finding all the stuff at reasonable prices.  Thanks again.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on July 20, 2006, 02:42:30 PM
If you have a Walmart Supercenter, they sell chicken quarters for like $4.30 for 10 lbs. Going to a less popular grocery store can land you good deals on canned fish and talk to the butcher about the meat scraps or the nearing expired meats. I have a guy at Dierberg's that sells me stuff that's a few days before the date that they pull out of the cases. It's not REAL cheap, but it's cheaper. I can usually get lamb and veal real cheap that way (I don't agree with lamb or veal production but if the animal is already slaughtered I figure why waste that life?) as they throw it all in the dumpster. It's just a trial an error thing. I bought chicken for 99c/lb and then I found Walmart's deal so next time. Meat markets I have yet to try out. I need to pick up some kidneys and heart there, as well as shop for some turkey necks. I'm also looking at some elk, bison and venison to mix up the meals with. Right now all he gets is chicken, turkey, beef, pork, veal (very rarely), lamb (also rarely as it's a bit fatty) and canned fish (he definately won't eat raw shrimp.. afraid to buy a whole fish and he not eat it). I honestly have fun shopping for him.. and that's weird because I'm a vegetarian , LOL. I also never thought I'd get over the handling of raw meats and organs but really, I only have trouble with the texture of liver anymore. He won't eat it raw, only frozen, so I just cut it up and freeze it, thankfully, so I never have to deal with much of the squishyness. ;D Amos also had yellow tartar covered teeth when I found him and now his teeth are getting snow white and the tartar is going away. Yay for RMBs! :bow:
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on July 20, 2006, 04:45:22 PM
Heather how long did it take you to get over handling the meat? I still gag... Its the texture plus the smell. I think I could handle one or the other, but not together. I need to get a mask or something lol, IVe pulled my shirt over my nose to help. Not to long ago I actualy went from just gagging to throwing up a little. I have a very narrow kitchen though so all I had to do was turn around and the sink was infront of me  :-\
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on July 20, 2006, 08:58:39 PM
It took me about 3 weeks. I found it absolutely repulsive the first week and asked myself many times WHY I was doing this again? Now only the liver bothers me  a bit and I reckon the heart and kidney will too when I aquire them. Chicken hearts and gizzards do not phase me though. As soon as I get the meat, I rinse it off and stick it in a ziploc bag and freeze it. Amos won't chew properly thawed meats so I have to feed him frozen meals. I can't smell anything when it's frozen, so that helps alot.. especially with the liver. I did gag when I had to handle it raw. Once I feed him I run upstairs and wash my hands. Makes it easier.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on July 20, 2006, 09:27:15 PM
Hmm, maybe I should start feeding the meals frozen. Its been a couple months, and I still gag.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on August 10, 2006, 08:25:43 PM
you cannot feed a whole chicken cooked because you cannot feed cooked bones - so you automatically lose calcium there.

in addition, cooking neutralizes enzymes and breaks down some proteins, and you also lose most of the fat from the skin, etc. in general without getting into absolute specifics and actual numbers, cooking changes the nutritional content of the food, and not in a better direction.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on August 10, 2006, 10:25:44 PM
I'm sure Kim meant this when she said "you cannot feed cooked bones" but I'm going to elaborate. Cooked bones splinter and can be sharp, while raw bones are soft and can be crunched down and do not pose a threat as long as chewed. Aside from calcium, raw bones are the best thing there is for teeth cleaning. The old myth that kibble cleans the teeth is simply not true, to clean teeth properly kibble would have to rub at the gum line which it does not. So as far as teeth cleaning, it does nothing because the problem area for gingivitis is the gum line.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Kati33 on August 11, 2006, 10:31:11 AM
And better than any form of food or chew toy for cleaning teeth is BRUSHING!! Dogs and cats should have their teeth brushed at least every other day, but most require it every day. They get all the same dental disease as people, and we don't rely on our diet to keep em clean.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: rhinecat on August 11, 2006, 06:33:30 PM
Here is a link to an article Ruthiechan posted in the cat reference section...http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=thedangersofarawdiet (http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=thedangersofarawdiet)  It outlines some of the things I am concerned about for this type of diet. 

That article is in *support* of a homemade raw diet, and only expresses concerns about raw *bones* and about inadequate diets. Even on the one serious concern, bones, she acknowledges that problems can be attributed to inappropriately-sized or -stored bones. Even in the title, "dangers" is in quotation marks, making the author's feelings plain.

Raw food recipes from the same site (http://"http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=014")
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on August 11, 2006, 08:31:22 PM
"However, there are many documented cases of even raw bones causing intestinal impactions or even perforations, which are deadly. At the least, many dogs have fractured their teeth on raw bones; probably either from bones too big for the dog, or from bones left out too long--they dry out and become virtual concrete after as little as a few hours in warm weather."

And from that little blip, I want to express how vitally improtant it is get feed PROPER sized bones and always, always, ALWAYS supervise the dog when eating to make sure the food is being chewed and not gulped. Weight bearing bones should also never be fed, which includes shanks and knuckle bones. THAT is what cracks a dog's teeth. Neck, back and tail bones are the best I can think of at the moment. Those bones are softer and easily crunched. Amos had issues with small buffalo wing type bones. I would feed him about 3 raw buffalo wings/drumsticks and he would have issues with them, as I posted earlier in the thread. I found blood in his stool and bone shards. After I took Kim's advice and gave him larger sized meat meals (and cut out the weight bearing bones), I've never had a problem since. Vets always see dogs on a raw diet when they have serious problems, so that's why most have such terrible opinions about it (not to mention it is not a form of nutrition taught in vet schools). Some people don't research the diet like they should and wonder why they have problems and blame the diet. All I can suggest to anyone thinking about switching is read, read, read. Read everything you can about the diet and what it all entails. Don't be quick to jump into it because if you're feeding it and the proportions are not right, you'll do more harm than good (ie feeding only one type of meat or the improper size rmbs).
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: rhinecat on August 13, 2006, 06:26:34 PM
But it still points out possible problems that DO accure.

And then talks about how they aren't actually injurious (in the case of bacteria and Toxoplasmosis), or are attributable to owner error (improperly sized, stored, or chosen bones, feeding the wrong things.) I'm not getting why I should be concerned about problems that wouldn't hurt my pet, or that were my fault and could be prevented if I did things correctly.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: rhinecat on August 13, 2006, 07:06:25 PM
For years we have been cooking meats.  If it was so much better for us raw everyone would still be eating it raw.

Um, people aren't dogs. Dogs eat raw meat in the wild, as do their immediate predecessors, grey wolves. Humans benefit from cooked meat because we are susceptible to the bacteria in it, and not really all that equipped to break down raw meat. Dogs don't need the bacteria protection or pre-breakdown that cooking meat provides.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: rhinecat on August 13, 2006, 09:33:45 PM
For years we have been cooking meats.  If it was so much better for us raw everyone would still be eating it raw.

Um, people aren't dogs. Dogs eat raw meat in the wild, as do their immediate predecessors, grey wolves. Humans benefit from cooked meat because we are susceptible to the bacteria in it, and not really all that equipped to break down raw meat. Dogs don't need the bacteria protection or pre-breakdown that cooking meat provides.

But our dogs are not wolves.  Many of our dogs are mutts that are suseptable to a lot more things.  That article does cover things that make feeding the raw to our dogs possibly bad for our dogs and also for us.  I doubt the saliva gets rid of all chances of toxoplasmosis - so there goes pet kisses if pregnant or trying to get pregnant. 

I can understand feeding real meat - balanced cooked diet - but not raw and I'm still waiting for support that it is truely safe for our Domestic animals and for us to have in our houses. 

Dogs are the same species as wolves, so in a very real sense, they are wolves. There are no structural differences which would impact their ability to digest a diet of raw prey, or make them more susceptible to food-borne illness. The article says that while those bacteria may be present in meat, they are not harmful to dogs. Most people have already been exposed to toxoplasmosis and are therefore not at risk, so I don't buy that objection, either, unless the person in question has been tested and therefore shown to definitely be at risk for toxoplasmosis.

If having raw meat in the house isn't safe for humans, I wonder where all the deaths from people who eat meat (a majority of our population!) are being hidden.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on August 13, 2006, 09:47:37 PM
first, there haven't been plenty of studies showing problems with feeding raw. there have been pitiful few, and most of them were very biased and NOT well designed - in fact, many of them have extremely glaring flaws.

we have mcdonalds, burger king, taco bell - using the "if its so much better for us" doesnt really work. do you know why we made kibble? because we were LAZY and didnt like to make meals for our pets, so manufacturers decided (and boy, did those guys hit a GOLDMINE) to make a pelleted little meal that came in a bag. and voila, people ate it up. and why is kibble bigger in america than any other country, where many people still do feed raw to their pets? because america is quite possibly the laziest country anywhere.

if we did what was best for us, we wouldnt have fast food, soda, snack foods galore, etc. clearly we dont actually care about what is BEST for us, purely about what we want and what is EASIEST. and its pushed onto our pets.

and kat, our dogs are very much still the animals descending from the wolves. what about them do you think has changed? it certainly hasnt been their teeth. it certainly hasnt been their GI tract. it certainly hasnt been their nutritional needs - because we have been selectively breeding for certain OUTWARD characteristics doesnt mean their genotype has changed at all.

if your biggest concern with a raw diet is catching toxoplasmosis, not only is there a severe lacking of the risks, but also a lack of understanding about the diet.

kat, youve made it plenty clear you dont WANT to learn about the diet. again, why post if all you want to do is argue. youre waiting for something that iwll never happen. where is the paper saying its safe for me to eat mcdonalds? where is the paper telling me ANYTHING in life is safe? seems to me every other day what was good last week is now bad. what once caused cancer now protects the heart. seems to me the news tells me every day people die in cars, and we still drive them. papers still tell us that pine shavings and cedar shavings are absolutely fine to use for rats!

life is a risk, plain and simple. personally, i choose to feed my animals a species appropriate diet in an effort to stave off the poor health that results DIRECTLY from feeding an innapropriate, grain-laden, kibble that affects their coats, their teeth, their internal organs, and their mental well-being. i made that decision by thinking for myself - not waiting for someone else to publish a paper - and besides, anyone and everyone can get something published that supports whatever we want to believe if you search hard enough. finding some "professional" that agrees with you doesnt make it more right than anything else. we all take risks that we deem appropriate for ourselves.

no one said raw was what humans should eat. humans are not carnivores. dogs are. cats are. i choose to seek a higher standard than what AAFCO dictates as a good food (that a certain percent of animals didnt DIE or lose more than 20% of their body weight when eating the food for a certain amount of time).

if you dont like the diet, then fine, no skin off my back. this isnt here for us to argue - some people are interested in feeding the diet. there is no absolute proof of ANYTHING in this world, and thats the only true fact. you seek absolute truth, good luck kat - let us know how THAT search goes.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: 1lila1 on August 13, 2006, 10:48:45 PM
I have a Q about what "sweetbreads" are.  I've read that they are organs such as the stomach and pancreas.  I posted in another thread about how after researching raw for a few months I don't plan on putting my dog on it at this point in time.  Instead I'm trying out the Timberwolf brand of food.  Although not required, they recommend supplementation with raw meat and "sweet breads".  I can do the supplementation but not an exclusively raw diet.  I give my dog pieces of raw meat while I'm cooking and she loves it.  I have given her raw bones like chicken legs and thighs on occasion and she loves those too.  I'd like to know what the best types of meat to supplement the timberwolf food are.  Should I switch out meat with organs or give a little of both everyday?   Thanks.

Oh, and what about my cat.  I'm switching him to timberwolf too. My cat only has one canine left from when he was hit by a car years ago so would anything he eats have to be cut up?  Will he still get some benefit from that?  He doesn't like cooked meat but haven't offered any raw food to him.  Or should I just stick with canned, which is 1/2 his diet anyway?   
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on August 13, 2006, 11:40:54 PM
Quote
Kim - I'm curious about it.  You say it's so great, so you should be able to support that better

im sorry kat, but there is nothing i could ever tell you that would convince you. im not going to waste my breath - you dont WANT to know benefits of the diet. When did I ever say it was without risk? When did I ever say this is the most PERFECT DIET and every animal will LIVE FOREVER and NEVER BE SICK and no one would ever have any repercussions or any potential negative side effects from the diet? Can you tell me anything in life that comes with those guarantees? Cause if so - sign me up.

The fact is, your mind doesn't seem to be open to the diet. And if you only want negatives, it is all you will see. I've heard this song and dance multiple times before, I used to be on the other side, and I've lived it for years. I've been on the forefront of this argument, considering I am IN the very profession that seeks to discredit this diet, in multiple ways - both as a scientist, someone trained to critically evaluate scientific publications, and as a veterinarian. The facts remain what they are - there isn't a miraculous paper out there that supports the diet, and the facts remain that no matter how good it could potentially be for any animal, there most likely never WILL be such a paper. The research done in animal nutrition is funded by, sponsored by, and performed by, the companies producing the foods. There simply isn't any other interest or funds to perform alternative studies, except at the academic level. And believe me, from what I experienced in my own academic career, as well as those shared by others - those who are willing to open their minds, and then step it up a level as those who are willing to speak OUT as dissidents - well, are few and far between. But being a minority doesn't make you wrong. The papers that are published - well, in fact, at least two came from someone I know personally, as she was one of my instructors in regards to nutrition! Those papers came from my very school - and believe me, I am not the only raw feeder at my alma mater, just perhaps the most vocal. I know technicians, I know researchers, I even know some clinicians at the school, who feed it themselves, encourage it, or at least RESPECT it.

What support do you want? The support against it is riddled with holes. I can give you anecdotal evidence, I can give you evolutionary biology, I can give you the support of zoos world wide.


Quote
- without causing hazards in houses with children or pregnant women.  It might not matter to you, but I have lost one child already, I prefer not to put my pets on a diet that could be hazardous to my future children.

LIFE is hazardous, Kat. you pick and choose what you want to deal with. if you don't want to deal with it, then don't. i am not going to waste my breath trying to convince you that the diet won't kill your kids, because the minute something goes wrong you will immediately blame the diet anyway. Go out and buy a bag of kibble and believe that it's safe, and be on your merry way. Plain and simple - who said you have to have large pieces of meat all over the kitchen? My dogs have been fed in their crates (meat doesn't even touch the floor). I know multiple dogs that were trained to eat their meat on one specific mat or towel that can be washed every day. After my dogs DO eat it on the floor, the floor is bleached and cleaned off. How is this any more of a risk than me cooking meat at home? or having meat in the fridge or on the counter thawing... or having ANYTHING in the house that can potentially grow bacteria?

Quote
You say Kibble is so bad, but cooked meat isn't any good either.
no, kat. i dont believe i ever said those words. i said that i feed raw because it is evolutionarily correct, in my opinion. i feel that feeding this diet allows me to feed a higher quality meat than what is seen in kibble (the 3-4D meats). i said that i feel not feeding a grain-laden diet is more appropriate for our carnivores. however, if anyone has ever asked me, i am more than willing to suggest some very good kibbles i believe are top of the line, that do a wonderful job for our pets. my own cats continue to eat some canned food when i don't have something thawed for them, i use innova EVO occassionally for training treats for my dog, as well as natural balance rolls for training and tracking. i feed innova kibble to my rats in their mix i make. i have never said all kibble is evil and feeding it will kill your dogs - thats just the extremist view you WANT to paint me with.

and no, i never said cooked meat is bad. what i said is, that cooking the meats removes nutritional value from the diet. and that you CANNOT safely feed a cooked bone to an animal (well, i didnt outright say it, i implied it and lin elaborated). I have some very good friends who homecook for their dogs, and more power to them - i have no problem with the diet, and i feel its still leaps and bounds more healthy for a pet than a raw diet. but i also feel that cooking it still removes some intrinisic nutritional value for the pet, and simply put, i dont feel like cooking for my dogs when they do just fine with a raw diet.

Quote
I don't see how having raw meat moved around the kitchen floor etc is a good idea.
are you going to allow your dog near children? are you going to disinfect your dog every single day, or at least their feet, to prevent anything from coming inside? believe me, after seeing as many dogs as i see on a daily basis since my involvement in veterinary medicine (which is nearing a decade now, i believe), my dog is probably CLEANEST after he eats his meals. in fact, and those who have met my dog can back this up, i would dare say my dogs are some of the cleanest ones around - they are well groomed, their nails are immaculate, they have clean ears, their teeth are spotless. when they have dirty meals that mess with their paws, i sit there and they wait patiently while i clean their feet with baby wipes and all natural cleansers, including picking out every last bit from their toenails (since i dont want meat in my bed, and they often eat some big meals right before bed).


Quote
Sorry for presenting a different side to this post.  Being more questioning of this diet.  I take concern for my pets, my family, and my children.

and the implication is, the rest of us dont? just because we have questions and DO NOT COME UP WITH THE SAME ANSWERS AND CONCLUSIONS AS YOU doesn't mean we dont care, haven't thought it out, or are negligent! life is open to interpretation, and i have never said that you as a kibble feeder (or whatever you feed, since i dont believe youve ever said, or if you did i dont recall it) were a horrible terrible person. i have never accused anyone on this board, or anywhere else to my recollection, of being a terrible owner for being a kibble feeder. in fact, some of my best friends continue to feed kibble, and i respect that. what i will not respect is using half-truths, misinformation, and someone putting words in my mouth, to attack the method in which i feed without the full information. ive had concerns, ive had questions - however, i come to the same conclusion that i always have - that i feel this diet offers my pets so many benefits, that it is worth it. i have had a dog break a tooth. i have never had a dog choke, i have never had a dog bloat, i have never had a dog have any other problem besides that. i have never said dogs will not have problems - however, every single DAY that i practice or enjoy the veterinary field, i see dogs that have issues DIRECTLY related to their diet, and those are problems *i do not see* in my own animals - so for that reason alone, i can say it is worth it for me.


Quote
You don't know me - or how my life is.  I don't run a McDonalds, I don't supply their income.
and you just missed the entire point of that.

tell me kat, what kibble are you feeding?
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on August 13, 2006, 11:54:49 PM
Quote
I have a Q about what "sweetbreads" are.  I've read that they are organs such as the stomach and pancreas.  I posted in another thread about how after researching raw for a few months I don't plan on putting my dog on it at this point in time.  Instead I'm trying out the Timberwolf brand of food.  Although not required, they recommend supplementation with raw meat and "sweet breads".  I can do the supplementation but not an exclusively raw diet.  I give my dog pieces of raw meat while I'm cooking and she loves it.  I have given her raw bones like chicken legs and thighs on occasion and she loves those too.  I'd like to know what the best types of meat to supplement the timberwolf food are.  Should I switch out meat with organs or give a little of both everyday?   Thanks.

Oh, and what about my cat.  I'm switching him to timberwolf too. My cat only has one canine left from when he was hit by a car years ago so would anything he eats have to be cut up?  Will he still get some benefit from that?  He doesn't like cooked meat but haven't offered any raw food to him.  Or should I just stick with canned, which is 1/2 his diet anyway?   

sweetbreads are the pancreas of the animal (i believe they are also southern delicacies, which is where the name may have originated from?), however there is also a second type of sweetbread which is the thymus. however, the thymus is typically only present in young animals, as it regresses as the animal ages, so unless you are eating or feeding young animals, the sweetbreads are most likely pancreas.

i am familiar vaguely with timberworlf, but as others said in the post, the sheer cost alone has turned me off (besides, i only research kibbles because i need to recommend them to others). PHD also makes a kibble that is designed to feed along with raw. i personally did feed half and half for a few months before i realized i might as well just feed all raw.

as for what meats are best to feed - that is up to you. personally it depends on the size of your dog, what you have access to, and what you can afford (and what your dog prefers) - oh, and how often you plan on feeding it. if you jsut give it 1-2 times a week, what you feed really shouldnt matter much since 90% of the diet will be kibble and theoretically "nutritionally balanced" :) if you are feeding it every single day, then you need to ensure that your raw aspect is "balanced" in the sense of bone to meat ration, as well as organs and heart.

whole meals of organs i wouldnt recommend. as lydia can concur, they are extremely prone to giving animals diarrhea :)


as for your cat - missing teeth is no problem. willow had only about 1/3rd of her teeth left when i got her, and she still managed to eat most things - let your cat tell you what he will and will not eat. have you researched about switching cats? (it has its own concerns, since you cannot safely "starve" a cat into eating raw, which some people recommend).

personally no matter what, depending on what your cat eats and why, i may suggest switching over to entirely canned minimally, which i find much healthier in a multitude of ways that i can elaborate on when i am less tired and dont have work in 6 hours :)
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: trubandloki on August 14, 2006, 07:06:17 AM
Kim - I'm curious about it.  You say it's so great, so you should be able to support that better - without causing hazards in houses with children or pregnant women.  It might not matter to you, but I have lost one child already, I prefer not to put my pets on a diet that could be hazardous to my future children.  You say Kibble is so bad, but cooked meat isn't any good either.  I don't see how having raw meat moved around the kitchen floor etc is a good idea. 



Hu?

Do you really think the people that feed raw let their dogs carry raw meat all over the house and leave raw meat residue every where to decay and such?

Do you really think that anyone who feeds raw would do anything to cause danger to their kids or such?


I just can not see how wiping clean the kitchen floor (or their cage, or such) after they eat is any more difficult than cleaning up after my dog eats her kibble.  (one dog licks the floor all around ALL the dog bowls)
I imagine the stuff you carry onto your kitchen floor from walking down the sidewalk in front of your house is far worse than what feeding your dog a raw diet (and wiping where they eat after they are done) would subject any child to.

Add that the simple addition of a child gate would keep any child away from the dog until you had a chance to clean up and the dog was safely done with their meal.  That should be the case even feeding kibble.

I totally can not see how feeding raw puts anyone at any health risk....child or adult.


Sorry for presenting a different side to this post.  Being more questioning of this diet.  I take concern for my pets, my family, and my children. 

I am very offended by that comment!

You are saying that if I feed my pets raw that I do not care about them or my family?



Let me add that I know PEOPLE that prefer their meat pretty much or totally raw.  If the meat is handled properly it isn't a risk.  My brother's entire family eats everything VERY rare.  As in, barely brown the outmost edges.  He even eats raw pieces as he is trimming the meat.  He is a Chef, he knows the risks of food handling, etc.  He is educated, etc.  He feeds this to his kids and his wife.  None have become sick.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: trubandloki on August 14, 2006, 12:33:27 PM
I didn't say no one else cares about their families.

Some of the things Kim stretched to etremes I did not say. 

That is how I read it...sorry.

And how I read it has nothing to do with what Kim said.  I was thinking on my own there.

Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on August 14, 2006, 12:36:05 PM
Quick question Kim! If the dog CAN handle organ meals can they be fed? Is the only concern diarrhea? Amos is able to handle the liver once weekly as a meal, though it is slightly smaller than his RMB meals which equal 1/4 lb. And how should heart be fed? It's classified as a muscle and offal.. so nutritionally is it to be treated like liver/kidneys/etc or like a lean meat?
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Kati33 on August 14, 2006, 07:12:22 PM
Kat- feeding your dog raw will not make you any more susceptible to toxo than anything else in your life. In fact, since you own cats- you have probably already been exposed and have titers to it. Have it checked by your doctor if you are that worried. And here is a good link with some more info on toxo- you are more at risk getting it from eating undercooked meat yourself and gardening- Link (http://www.cdc.gov/NCIDOD/dpd/parasites/toxoplasmosis/2004_PDF_Toxoplasmosis.pdf)

As far as the raw feeding goes- I've researched it and don't think its the best option for me or my pets right now. But I've come a long way in what I do feed my dogs- I make the effort to get a better brand of kibble and also feed my dogs homecooked. No, it doesn't have the same nutrients as raw, but when I cook meat I use the water I cook in to make their grains (I do add grains to my diet, it works for my dogs) and I supplement the calcium using egg shells. And what I cook for my dogs is leaps and bounds better than the kibbles that have so many added chemicals. And what is most important to me- my dogs are doing well on the diet I'm feeding now. Asher's epilepsy is easier to control and the much smaller amount of sodium in my cooked diet vs kibble has allowed me to lower the dose of one of her meds. Each dog does differently on different diets, some dogs can't tolerate grains, others can't eat raw, I've found a combo that works for my dogs.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: 1lila1 on August 15, 2006, 12:20:05 AM
Thanks so much for the info, Kim!  You have been a huge help.  I really appreciate it. 
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on August 15, 2006, 06:37:10 PM
Quote
There would be less arguments if you didn't read things into what I post that I did not write?  I've been asking questions - and getting told not to due to being more cautious about this diet.
just a quick glimpse on this page only shows one question posted by you, about cooking v. raw (which i answered).


Quote
I didn't say no one else cares about their families.
clearly the wording you used made at least a few of us feel that the implication was present.


Quote
Some of the things Kim stretched to etremes I did not say.

and the reverse isnt true of what you posted towards me? what did i stretch to extremes, exactly?
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on August 15, 2006, 06:48:25 PM
For the record, I read the exact same things from the post as Kim and Trubandloki did
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on August 15, 2006, 06:54:29 PM
heather - if amos can handle it, by all means do it (i just wouldnt feed multiple organ only meals then, since theyonly need a small amount each week, proportionally).
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on August 16, 2006, 03:29:46 AM
Thanks Kim. But should the heart be treated as a muscle or offal.. and how many times can it be fed a week?

On another note, I was fiddling around with the serach engine looking to learn more about the diet (I'm always learning something new everyday) and came across this link. http://rawfed.com/myths/ (http://rawfed.com/myths/) Maybe this will give you a better understanding about the diet, Kat. I think it presents the information in a professional manner and uses non biased resources to back up information. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on August 16, 2006, 06:18:21 AM
heart isnt muscle meat OR offal in my book - its heart muscle. while it is a muscle, i consider it separate from all others in my book because animals need it in its OWn right, for taurine, etc.

i feed heart 2-3 times a week, personally. i admit i do not know if that is enough to assure nutritional soundness, but it sounds right to me (so there is my public service announcement).
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on August 16, 2006, 08:19:51 AM
Kim and Heather...

What do you guys do about traveling with feeding raw? This is the only reason I still feed any kibble.. I feed a little bit here and there to make sure Tessa still eats kibble, so if I went out of town I would be able to bring kibble with, or if I needed to have my dad dogsit for me he could just feed kibble. I guess I could just use canned food for traveling? I'm thinking the canned food makes me gag as much as the raw does, so I might as well switch over to more raw. Will a dog snub canned food after being on raw for a while? I'm thinking a dog may very well snub kibble after being on raw, but then my dog eats anything so who knows. I live far from my family, so for holidays or whatnot I travel, and of course Tessa comes with. I know feeding raw would NOT go over well in either my dads home (because his gf and I clash about EVERYTHING, especially taking care of animals... Although I finaly got them to stop feeding Science Diet), and its hard enough for me to get permission to bring my dog when I visit my mom (she usualy requests I ask my dad to watch her) so if I was staying overnight with Tessa I don't think raw meals would go over well. Also stuff like camping, when I wouldnt have access to a fridge or freezer... I guess basicaly all my rambling boils down to if a dog will ever snub canned food? Since that could be my answer.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on August 16, 2006, 11:59:25 AM
I think you could put Tessa on canned food if it's just temporary. When I go out of town, I have the petsitter feed Amos raw. I plan out the meals and write them down and label the bags of meat so she doesn't have to even think about it. I just fed Amos some Innova Evo or something that's 95% duck and he still eats raw. Then again, he'll eat kibble if he can get it too. LOL. I have never traveled with a raw fed dog before, but I would bring along a can of fish, and I would have a small cooler for his foods. They are frozen now so no biggy if they thaw while traveling, I can repack the cooler with ice when I get to my destination. Just make sure the ziploc bags are airtight. Another option I do when I know I'll be home really late or early morning, I'll feed Amos his whole meals for the day (which equal 1/2 lb) and that way I don't have to worry about it. If you're staying overnight just feed Tessa her food before you leave and feed her on her regular schedule when you get home again. And if your family doesn't want raw meat on the floors, you can cut up some of her meat meals in pieces she doesn't have to drag around. Or bring a mat and train her to eat only on it. Or feed her when they all go to bed (and you could probably feed her once a day then as well). Alot of raw sites I've visited recommend feeding only once a day, but I feed twice a day. *shrug* I guess it's personal preference. Like some people fast their dogs and some don't.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on August 16, 2006, 12:08:58 PM
I don't use petsitters, Tessa comes with me. It would get too complicated to try to explain my family, so I'll just repeat its not an option to feed raw when I am visiting. The cooler isnt an option either.. I shouldn't have bothered posting lol, I'll just use canned for travel.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: kim on August 16, 2006, 09:11:57 PM
ive travelled for 4 years with raw fed dogs, its not hard .

when i am not with the dog, whomever petsits for them feeds raw. i either bring it to their house (bowie would stay with my mom), or the petsitter who stays at my place will feed the raw. i typically just have tupperware containers of ground and they can thaw one prior to each meal and just feed. even frozen, it took most of my dogs about 10 seconds to eat 1-3 lbs of ground.

when i travel personally (and its typically at least once a month), i bring a cooler with meat, or buy meat wherever i end up.  i usually start with all ground, since most of the time i wont have an hour (ha, who am i kidding, 20 minutes for rah) to let them eat a nice big meaty bone. starting completely frozen in a cooler with ice, i can last an entire weekend without it completely thawing, even in 100 degree weather this summer - i left the cooler in my car. in some places, i have friends that raw feed and then i can jsut feed some of their stuff, which makes it easier on me.


just curious, why is travelling with a cooler not an option? they dont take up much room at all.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on August 17, 2006, 04:04:13 AM
Its the places where I travel to, when cooler wouldnt be an option... It could be an option for camping, but thats it. The majority of the time when I leave for overnight trips its to either see my parents, or I'm leaving overnight and my dad is watching Tessa for me.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: ~Lin on March 20, 2007, 12:42:13 AM
uhm, bumping because theres been recent link-age to this topic, and I wanted to add in that Ive been feeding completely raw. Shortly after my last post in this topic too I think it was, that I started feeding completely raw diet. And I LOVE it. I love what its done for the foster dogs Ive had too.
Title: Re: Raw Diet
Post by: Heather on March 20, 2007, 01:29:26 AM
Hey I'll update on my situation too. Amos is no longer "foster dog" as everyone on the forum can see, and he's been on raw since the beginning of July? or something? He's completely healthy. Everyone I've met has commented on how beautiful his coat and body shape is and I love the fact that his breath doesn't stink!