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Rats Rule! => Home Squeak Home => Topic started by: Crickett on April 27, 2011, 11:51:31 AM

Title: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Crickett on April 27, 2011, 11:51:31 AM
ok so i posted on fb basic rules to rat care...number 1 was no pine or ceder as its toxic.....a "breeder" on my friends list says that due to a "outbreak" of some kind they are now making pine with no toxins and her vet even reccomends it??? and its only the dust to worry about...i commented that its the oils in it and that is what i got back...i cant confirm this.
Can anyone on here do confirm or disproove this for me (if its not true id like to let her know and hopefuly she will change her bedding). and what are your thoughts....am i wrong? is pine now "ok" for rats to live in "in an open cage so the dust has time to settle" (breeder friend quoted)
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: applecavy on April 27, 2011, 11:59:15 AM
I've heard literally nothing to confirm this.
I believe that breeder may be deceiving herself.
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: bit-bit on April 27, 2011, 12:03:41 PM
There is kiln-dried pine, which has had most of the volatile oils removed by heating.  It's safer than regular pine, but still retains some of the oils, I think. 

Aspen doesn't cost much more, so I just don't see a point to risking it.
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: LOTR_Ratties on April 27, 2011, 12:04:46 PM
This web page is a great article explaining the toxicity of pine:

http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html (http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html)
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Crickett on April 27, 2011, 12:07:47 PM
thanks all, if yall dont mind im going to link her this thread and hopefully she will spend a lil more money on at lest aspen. i didnt think Pine was ok at all and i cant findanything in google search to proove her statements
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Crickett on April 27, 2011, 12:31:38 PM
ok so i tried to message her about the bedding and got a "i know better than you" response. so i linked the ratfanclub link...idk she read it...then she commented on my note like this



Me: http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html describing why pine is bad...and i cant find anything on "new" pine
21 minutes ago Like.



Her: then talk to your vet I have dealt with rats a long time and not once had issues with it till they started putting oils in it and now that they removed them ppl have ad no issues
20 minutes ago Like.


Me:  my vet reccomends, carefresh or aspen...and its the sent i think your referring to,acids and oils occure naturally ...even heat treating dosent get rid of them all and can cause liver problems but im not going to argue , you can read my link i posted
13 minutes ago Like


Her:  yea and sorry after 12 yrs of dealing with my rats i still dont call people dip sh** just cause they dont have the smarts on all rat facts that is simply rude and wrong I agree on some of the terms yes and oils are actually put in from the mill and as well from when people touch it. But then again I dont care have fun with your rats and Ill do what I know has worked for mine for many years
11 minutes ago Like.

My last comment (i dont like internet arguing) Me: a simple internet search of rats as pets brings up may good links with alot of info,,,anyone wanting an animal should at least do this before buying. sorry but those who dont and just jump in and then whine and complain that their rat is acting weird etc. or dont want to at least take some advide from others and use the SEARCH function...in my opion are dip sh**s

Mind you the Dipsh** comment was added at the end of  my number 13 rule they cannot survive in the wild and are not disposible pets.

She difriended me (oh boo hoo -_-) and refuses to listen obviously :( sad

edited for typing errors






Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Crickett on April 27, 2011, 12:59:37 PM
this was my note that i posted...i dont find it rude do any of you?

"The Idiots Guide To Rules Of Rat Care"

 

1.NO PINE OR CEDER! the oils and acids are toxic , do some reading first.

 

2.A male WILL breed a female givin half a chance..no he dosent know "better" hes a rat. Er go, DONT HOUSE THEM TOGETHER!

 

3.TANKS ARE NO SUITUBLE FOR RATS EVEN WITH TOPPERS! seriously how would you like to live in a glass house that smelled like pee,with poo encrusted wire as you roof?

 

4.NO! that crappy little pet store "rat cage" is so not big enough for even 1 no matter what that nice young man that worked there told you. If you really want a rat, spend a little money and get the right cage.or build a adequate one

 

5.DONT BE DUMB! ADOPT! granted all of us have bought from pet stores at one point or another (i myself have); but that don't mean you have to CONTINUE being stupid. You know that pet stor rats come from Mills.Yet you continue to buy them.

 

6.No hamster food IS NOT good for them,again read a little.

 

7.No they can't "make friends" with you hamster/mouse..they will rip it apart.

 

8. QT<QT<QT..rats can carry diseases that may spread to any exsisting rats you have,including but not limited to : Phenomonia,mites,and possibly deadly(to rats) the SDA virius. a proper QT for 3-6 weeks id a MUST! in seprate air space.

 

9.No rats and mice are NOT the same animal...

 

10.Rats are social animals and do best in pairs,preferably more..theres no real difference in 2 rather than one, you rat will be happier.They also require at least 1 houre play time with you out of cage.and need lots of toys(easy to make) and hammocks to keep them happy as they are very smart.

 

11.Rats can have alot of heath problems, some cronic that need a lifetime of antibiotics which can be expensiv;;be prepared and have a vet fund. If you want an animal without vet care costs...get a hermit crab -_-

 

12. Breeding just to have "cute babies" is NOT GOOD, only breed for the species itself,and the overall health of. not looks! Breeding pet store rats is a HORRIBLE IDEA! you do not know their background so have no clue to any possibly inhearited defects/health issue.Breeding is alot to take on,find a good breeder to learn from first. Be prepared to spend alot of money and find homes for a possible 22 babies in one litter (most are smaller 6-18 but it has happend).

 

13.Rats no matter if they were free,adopted,givin,or baught ARE NOT DISPOSIBLE PETS! they; as a domestacated animal can not survive in the wild dipsh**!

 

and 14. If you ignore these simple rules of care, or dont want to at least TRY to the very best of your ability adhear to them...DONT GET A RAT!
(http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae192/Crickett_90/boomieavy.jpg)
A health and happy rat (my Boomie Boy <3 )



Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Stacy M on April 27, 2011, 01:06:51 PM
Ugh, I'm not sure this woman has any business having rats as pets, nevermind breeding them  :-\  I love how she hasn't seen any problems....because you can totally "see" elevated liver levels, and lung scarring.  I also "love" that the mills put the oils in the wood, umm, the oils are PART of the wood  :doh:  I wish, for their rats' sakes, people would be willing to consider the possibility that they have been wrong. 

As to your note, was it posted in general, or specifically for her?  In general, no, I do not think it is rude.  While warranted in that person's case, if you had sent it TO them or posted it to their wall or whatever, then yes it would be rude.
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Crickett on April 27, 2011, 01:13:02 PM
no it was posted to my profile as a general note for anyone to read. and i agree with you...i asked a few people and she breeds 5-6 litters at a time only months apart, keep them all in tanks with toppers and on pine, and they are pet store rat from what i can tell, she calls herself a breeder :( most of her pics her rats look sick.

She refused to even read the link i posted :( people like her make me angry and sad
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: LOTR_Ratties on April 27, 2011, 01:31:46 PM
It's heartbreaking and maddening how many people like that are out there, apparently believing they're doing nothing wrong.... I wish so desperately that that kind of cruelty could just be put to an end. :'( Thank you so much, Crickett, for trying to talk some sense into her. I really hope it either sinks in somehow, or that she'll be stopped from breeding. Unfortunately though, there seems to be no end to the number of people calling themselves "breeders" that, as smesyna said, have no business even having them as pets. Poor little ratties :-[
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Crickett on April 27, 2011, 01:46:57 PM
I wish that she would have listened, and now i feel horrible for her rats :'( i tried as best i could i was polite and kept my temper under control (a feat since thats one major flaw of us redheads) and still she kept saying that she was right and didnt care what i said. Idk how she can think this when her rats even in pictures look sick and unhappy, her babies look worse.She claims to have 12 years experiance..but in my opinion just because you've owned rats for 12 years dosent mean you know about them as she obviously dosent and dosent care to . I hate that she claims to be a breeder yet she boasts about "throwing in a silver with a cream and seeing what she gets" . I truly can't stand people like her and im glad she defriended me...i dont want to be associated with ANY BYB in any way...not even on FB 
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Marybelle on April 27, 2011, 02:29:56 PM
It cramps my brain that she thinks the mills "put" the oils in the woods...  Seriously?  Ouch.

ETA: And it cramps my brain worse that she got this information from a vet!  I'm hoping she's lying about the vet, because I can't imagine a vet that actually believes the mills put oils into the pine wood either...
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Crickett on April 27, 2011, 02:50:16 PM
It got me as well , see i was always under the impression that the oil was natural. but according to her i am wrong.  :confused: (boggles my mind)
And id hate to meet her vet if he/she really did say that. I know mine whould slap me if i used pine or cedar; she loves my rats. This woman had me confused,angry,sad,and completely bewildered at her blatant refusal of any advice; even from very reputable links.
Granted i may not have owned rats for 12 years or be the oldest hand at caring for them. But via internet searches, talking to vets/friends who own rats, and joining here and asking/searching...i believe i am fully competent and capable of properly caring for my rats. But to her , im 21 and i know nothing. Its just a phase  :doh:
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: RattiesSix on April 27, 2011, 09:24:26 PM
I've found that the rat community is the strictest on the bedding rule. Cedar is a no go in EVERY animal community. But a lot of other pet communities use kiln-dried pine with no problems. The chinchilla community is the huge one that I can think of.

I use aspen with my chins and rats, but I just thought I'd point this out. :]
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Marybelle on April 27, 2011, 10:42:56 PM
Yeah, my chin is on aspen, too. 

I think that most of us, at least in this community, go by a "better safe than sorry" rule.  If there's a possibility it might cause issues, don't use it!
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: SouthPaw on April 28, 2011, 01:11:07 AM
I've found that the rat community is the strictest on the bedding rule. Cedar is a no go in EVERY animal community. But a lot of other pet communities use kiln-dried pine with no problems. The chinchilla community is the huge one that I can think of.

I use aspen with my chins and rats, but I just thought I'd point this out. :]
Yeah I've noticed this too. I am studying to be a vet tech and in my exotics class we were taught ABSOLUTELY NO cedar, but pine is just "not recommended." It doesn't get nearly the same sort of emphasis.

I don't know how you "reformulate" pine... it's a wood, it is what it is. Meh, I prefer Carefresh/Yesterdays News, anyway. With so many other options out there, there's no reason to use  pine; better safe than sorry.
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Suebee on April 28, 2011, 07:55:08 AM
It cramps my brain that she thinks the mills "put" the oils in the woods...  Seriously?  Ouch.

That caught my eye, too! The heck?!? They don't ADD anything, phenols are part of the wood, you know, from NATURE. Kiln-drying supposedly removes most of it, but I still don't trust it.

Sorry, this person doesn't have a clue... nor does their vet (though this doesn't surprise me... the truly good rat vets are few and far between).
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: ceopet on April 28, 2011, 11:43:47 AM
Poor rats  >:( People like that make me so sad and angry. She should NOT own rats as pets let alone breed them. She should not even be in the same room with them...What crazyness.  :eek:
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Crickett on April 28, 2011, 11:52:17 AM
Ok so now shes making me angry...she is friends with some of my other ratie friends and is messaging them telling them that i shouldnt own rats and that i misstreat them, that i dont know anything about them coz i posted that note i read all that stuff....well no duh thats how i learned it. I DO NOT misstreat any animal in my care, much less MY pets. i have ignored it, and her posts to my wall about me being a "child". she is getting blocked before i loose my temper for real....she shouldnt even be allowed to own any pet! much less call herself a breeder, she is the reason good breeders get a bad rap. I really wish their was a LAW against people liker her owning any pet. I cried last night thinking of how bad her rats must feel, and how unhappy they must be much less all the other ones she has owned...it made me cuddle every one of my ratties close. 
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: ceopet on April 28, 2011, 12:10:33 PM
Cricett that is horrible, you can also report her on FB as well as removing her posts from you wall. You don't need that BS
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Crickett on April 28, 2011, 01:56:52 PM
how do you report someone on FB?
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Gabrielle B on April 28, 2011, 07:05:11 PM
I find "The Idiots Guide to Rat Care" overly emotional and lacking in good solid advice for rat care. Stating "read a little" at the end of the "tips" makes no sense, someone reading that has gone there to get advise.

1. Why is pine bad?

2. Why no suggestion of spaying/neutering?

3. Why?

4. Whats an adequate cage?

5. What benefit does adopting have?

6. What is good rat food?

7. Well der hahahahaha!

8. Nice point, good info. Maybe add some more stuff about cleanliness and sterlization between visiting populations

9. State differences?

10. They need stimulation, rather than toys so to speak, something to keep their minds busy. Maybe add some examples.

11. What is the point in devaluing another animal? Are you certain hermit crabs have NO vet costs? Maybe also add what makes a good vet? (one whos willing to learn and research for your rats if they dont know the answer)

12. Quite over emotional. Perhaps add unbiased information to both sides?

13. Domestic rats can survive in the wild, though not ideal. But the point about them not being disposable is good.

14. I wouldnt call these rules, they were supposed to be a "guide"
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: ceopet on April 29, 2011, 12:00:18 AM
I think if you click on their profile there should be a button to report them, also there should be something on her wall posts to you that say report abuse or something like that. if you roll your mouse over the right hand corner.
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: strangeduck on April 29, 2011, 02:54:27 AM
I find "The Idiots Guide to Rat Care" overly emotional and lacking in good solid advice for rat care. Stating "read a little" at the end of the "tips" makes no sense, someone reading that has gone there to get advise.

1. Why is pine bad?

2. Why no suggestion of spaying/neutering?

3. Why?

4. Whats an adequate cage?

5. What benefit does adopting have?

6. What is good rat food?

7. Well der hahahahaha!

8. Nice point, good info. Maybe add some more stuff about cleanliness and sterlization between visiting populations

9. State differences?

10. They need stimulation, rather than toys so to speak, something to keep their minds busy. Maybe add some examples.

11. What is the point in devaluing another animal? Are you certain hermit crabs have NO vet costs? Maybe also add what makes a good vet? (one whos willing to learn and research for your rats if they dont know the answer)

12. Quite over emotional. Perhaps add unbiased information to both sides?

13. Domestic rats can survive in the wild, though not ideal. But the point about them not being disposable is good.

14. I wouldnt call these rules, they were supposed to be a "guide"

In defense of the OP...she doesn't claim to be an expert, and I suspect that her guide was written for people who ask dumb questions and probably meant to have a somewhat sarcastic tone. Furthermore, since she doesn't claim to be an expert, I think her telling others to look for information in other places is a good idea.

I also don't think she posted the note to find out whether a breeder would find them to be guidelines they'd use or recommend, I think she was just asking whether it was specifically rude.
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Crickett on April 29, 2011, 10:29:42 AM
In defense of the OP...she doesn't claim to be an expert, and I suspect that her guide was written for people who ask dumb questions and probably meant to have a somewhat sarcastic tone. Furthermore, since she doesn't claim to be an expert, I think her telling others to look for information in other places is a good idea.

I also don't think she posted the note to find out whether a breeder would find them to be guidelines they'd use or recommend, I think she was just asking whether it was specifically rude.


+1 :) you got it  :BlueDumboSmile:



Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: Gabrielle B on April 30, 2011, 01:29:01 AM
Sorry, I just thought by the title that it would be a guide with good solid, easy to read and follow advice on keeping rats....
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: [inactive] on April 30, 2011, 11:57:22 PM
Pffft. I don't even know what to say aside from the idiocy of a lot of members of the human race and their attitude toward other people (and animals) never ceases to amaze me. And anger me. I mean, we all have made 'beginners mistakes' (and even long after being a 'beginner'), but when you're proven to be wrong you need to own it and fix it. I mean that as a general rule, but I mean it especially if it's jeopardizing the health of someone/something else! If someone tells me something I'm doing could be hazard to my pets, even if it's not proven.... I'm going to stop it.
She's either lying about what the vet said, or her vet is just as uneducated in rat care as the average person who has never owned one. There are so many things wrong with her argument. It clearly isn't going to get drilled into her skull.

Oh, and how to report someone on Fb?
When you go the their profile, on the left under the column with "Wall, Info, Photos", scroll past their friends list, and underneath there is a list that says: Suggest Friends, Unfriend (if you are friends), Share Profile, then finally "Report/Block this Person". The convenience! Blocking and reporting at the same time! :p
(I'm on FB right now, no I didn't have all that memorized haha ;] )
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: ZeppelinLadyLove on May 02, 2011, 01:12:07 AM
I normally go with "better safe than sorry" lol

I actually use yesterdays news but I read that is has sawdust so im switching over to exquisicat :cheeky:
Title: Re: "New" Pine bedding Is Not Toxic???
Post by: RandE on May 05, 2011, 07:07:52 PM
IMO I found the whole note that was written incredibly rude......

As a new rat owner, if I were to be looking around and found a note posted by someone regarding Rat Care I would read it!

If I were totally new to rats and I was thinking those things (maybe because I didn't know any better) and was told I was a dipsh*t, I would be rather offended.

Plus the "read a little" comments would make it seem the the OP was implying that if a person didn't know this they were complete morons.

Maybe people are just starting out with looking into rats? They may only know what they heard, or assumed. Doesn't make them stupid....

JMHO. Take it or leave it, but I can see where it was thought of as rude.