Author Topic: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?  (Read 14625 times)

Offline Nelly

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Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« on: January 24, 2005, 01:19:28 PM »
Because of searches I have set up on ebay, I keep seeing this seller's items which are mainly pine.  All the items say for rats.  I know pine for bedding is a big no-no, but I'd thought things made of pine were as well.  So 2 questions - am I right about that and would you email the seller attaching the info sheet on pine?

Thanks
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 05:42:53 PM by Nelly »
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Offline Bratratbeds

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2005, 03:11:47 PM »
It couldn't hurt but you would have to do it in  a very tactful way so as to not irk them if you know what I mean.  It may be that they just don't know its harmful.  I would want to know if it were me.  Remember politeness is the key.
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nightsdoc

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2005, 03:35:26 PM »
Just to make it clear - are all pine products detrimental to rat's health?   I only ask because I made my girls some balconies out of untreated pine shelving.

Offline Sunilata

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2005, 03:41:14 PM »
Just to make it clear - are all pine products detrimental to rat's health?   I only ask because I made my girls some balconies out of untreated pine shelving.

I've often wondered this myself - I had a pine "hut" for the girls but I threw it out after I found out it was pine and I noticed some sneezing. Still, it smelled nowhere near as "piney" as shavings do.
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nightsdoc

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2005, 04:01:49 PM »
All right.  Someone is full of rat raisins here.   Who is it?

Number one:   http://www.phoenixzoo.org/zoo/animals/kevinscolumn/november23.asp

or

Number two:  http://www.carefresh.ca/endorse/afrma.html


And what I really want to know is,  do I need to replace the balconies for my girls with something other than pine?

Offline Dearpie

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2005, 04:08:13 PM »
URL could not be found ... :(

Offline Devin

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2005, 04:11:12 PM »
That guy is a moron, Doc.  I've e-mailed him links to papers on the toxicity of cedar and pine to small animals, from respected, peer-reviewed journals.  He refuses to change the info on his site.  We don't use pine shelves and stuff, just to be on the safe side, but I can't speak for everybody on that.
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Offline menagerie

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2005, 04:15:12 PM »
I don't put give my guys anything pine either. If I can't find out exactly what type of wood a wooden product is I won't use it.

Doc, you can rebuild using poplar, oak or any other hard wood and it would be fine.

Because of searches I have set up on ebay, I keep seeing this seller's items which are mainly pine.  All the items say for rats.  I know pine for bedding is a big no-no, but I'd thought things made of pine were as well.  So 2 questions - am I right about that and would you email the seller attaching the info sheet on pine?

Thanks

Nelly, I've emailed several people on eBay about things not being appropriate for rats. Most sellers don't care, they are just trying to get people to buy their products.  :(
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Offline nimue_draganawolf

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2005, 04:18:25 PM »

Nelly, I've emailed several people on eBay about things not being appropriate for rats. Most sellers don't care, they are just trying to get people to buy their products. :(

And unfortunately, people who haven't done their research buy those products.  Which means there has to be a demand for them.  *sigh* This I hate people.
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Offline ShantiDass

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2005, 04:28:09 PM »
I wonder if it's possible to inform ebay that someone is selling items that are toxic to the animals?

Offline Devin

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2005, 04:38:46 PM »
I e-mailed Ebay on taht, too.  It was when I was trying to get them to set up a separat category for pest stuff, so it wouldn't be in the pet rodent section.  THey sent me back a form letter, "yadda yadda yadda can't please everyone yadda yadda yadda".  Maybe if a whole bunch of us e-mailed them about it, it would get more done?  And the sellers, same thing as menagerie.  They don't care as long as they make money.
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nightsdoc

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2005, 05:01:27 PM »
The balconies have been in use since I got the 695.    But I will swing by Home Depot and pick up some new ones.  They did have them in different woods.   

I guess I didn't think hard enough on the shelves.

Offline RatKat

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2005, 05:12:47 PM »
I'm not trying to push buttons but I sort of doubt that pine furniture or shelves cause the same toxicity that shavings do.  When you shred something, the amount of surface area increases dramatically.  Therefore, I pine board has relatively little exposed surface, even though it feels heavy.  Each shaving is releasing the pine tar.  My girls have a little wooden house and while I know I can't smell anywhere as acutely as they do, I really can't detect a pine odor from it--unless I sand it.  Yes, I know it is THERE but nothing like the odor of shredded pine.

I guess it doesn't hurt to be aware of it and you are certainly within your rights to avoid it but I wouldn't condemn someone who is selling this kind of stuff!   :)

RatKat

nightsdoc

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2005, 05:15:08 PM »
I just did a quick check of the Martin's Cage website and the furniture that they supply are made from new pine (the porch swing, the little beds, chairs, etc).    I don't think they would knowingly sell something harmful to any creatures.

I'd just like a more definative answer on the pine situation.

Edited to add:  A Google search of the Net using "rat" "pine" and "toxins" only comes up with websites referring to pine shavings (or the like) used for bedding.   I can't find anything that states that pine itself is toxic to rats.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2005, 05:19:55 PM by nightsdoc »

nightsdoc

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2005, 05:25:13 PM »
BTW,  use this link to view the eBay auctions that opened up this thread.


http://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQgotopageZ1QQsassZmeowwQ5fmaniaQQsorecordsperpageZ50QQsosortpropertyZ1/

Somehow the post by Nelly got an FTP in front of it.

Offline brandy

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2005, 09:38:30 PM »
I'm not trying to push buttons but I sort of doubt that pine furniture or shelves cause the same toxicity that shavings do.  When you shred something, the amount of surface area increases dramatically.  Therefore, I pine board has relatively little exposed surface, even though it feels heavy.  Each shaving is releasing the pine tar.  My girls have a little wooden house and while I know I can't smell anywhere as acutely as they do, I really can't detect a pine odor from it--unless I sand it.  Yes, I know it is THERE but nothing like the odor of shredded pine.

I think I agree with this.  The phenols are still there, but I think they are *much* less likely to do any damage in the form of a shelf/house (or other whole block of pine) than in shavings.  Whatever phenols are on the surface would probably also wear off after a bit.  Now, cedar I wouldn't risk - b/c you can smell it coming off of even a block of cedar.  If I can smell it, I wouldn't trust it.
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Offline Suebee

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2005, 08:49:34 AM »
I can see where you are coming from, but two points must be made:

1. Phenols are not just on the surface, they run through the wood. So, if it "wears off" the top, there's plenty underneath.

2. When pine gets wet, it releases phenols... so, if a piece of pine is peed on, phenols are released.

I wouldn't personally use anything made of pine with my rats unless it was sealed with water-based polyurethane first (which is child-safe and used on toys).

Offline Heather

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2005, 10:30:34 AM »
Does anyone know if the leap-n-ledges are made of pine? I have one in the ruud cage and I honestly can't tell what kind of wood it is.

Offline RatKat

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2005, 10:45:41 AM »
Also, I think the wood gets kinda coated--I know every single item in the cage, including the cage itself--get liberally coated with urine (thanks, girls!). I think the amount of phenol that gets through is very limited.  As Suebee says, the urine releases the phenols but I honestly can't smell anything but urine--even when I wash it!

I have a cedar clothes closet in my house that hasn't emitted even the tiniest iota of cedar smell since I have had it! I know I need to sand it down to get the smell back but I really can't be bothered!  I DID scratch a little corner of it and the smell came up.

Suebee,

I didn't know that the water based polyurethane was safe for kids but I guess that makes sense.  I would just be concerned that the rats would chew it off and eat it.  I think pound for pound, a kid can't ingest as much as a coating as a rat can tho' some may give it a good go!   ;)

Best,

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Offline Suebee

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2005, 10:52:06 AM »
I've honestly never had any of my rats eat any of the wood they chewed. But yes, water-based polyurethane, like Aqua Zar, is child-safe. :)

Even so, I just got sick of that pervasive pee smell, so I don't use any wood in my cage anymore except for the manzanita bird branches (which are obviously not pine ;) ). Aside from the branches, it's all PVC pipe, coated wire, plastic "logs" and easily replaceable, washable hammocks. Oh, yeah, and their family size tissue box which gets completely destroyed until it resembles WWII ruins... we call it "Fort Kleenex." ;)

*makes mental note to pick up new branch for the second cage*

Offline trubandloki

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2005, 11:01:48 AM »
Even so, I just got sick of that pervasive pee smell, so I don't use any wood in my cage anymore except for the manzanita bird branches (which are obviously not pine ;) ).


What is a Manzanita bird branch?

Offline Suebee

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2005, 11:10:12 AM »
http://www.jolleyfeathers.com/manzanitastraight.html

I usually get the 18" long ones, with screws at both ends. They fit perfectly across the 18" deep Martin's cages (860, 695, etc) -- though you DO have to pull out the cage wall a little when installing it -- and they add a nice amount of stability to the cage, too.

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Offline brandy

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2005, 12:02:42 PM »
Does anyone know if the leap-n-ledges are made of pine? I have one in the ruud cage and I honestly can't tell what kind of wood it is.

I have those too (and the new double-wide sleep n ledge) - they don't smell like pine to me.  Although they do look a lot like the ledge in the original post - but if you can't even smell the phenols, I can't imagine they'd be doing much damage.

I realize that the phenols are all through the wood, but the stuff trapped in the center of the wood isn't going to get out unless your rats are major chewers.  Just b/c it's worn off the top layer doesn't mean the phenols deeper in are going to automatically seep out to the top.  Mine nibble wooden things a tiny bit here and there, but nothing major - now if your rats destroy wood, I'll bet pine is a much worse idea.
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Offline amymckee

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2005, 12:34:12 PM »
Even so, I just got sick of that pervasive pee smell, so I don't use any wood in my cage anymore except for the manzanita bird branches (which are obviously not pine ;) ). Aside from the branches, it's all PVC pipe, coated wire, plastic "logs" and easily replaceable, washable hammocks. Oh, yeah, and their family size tissue box which gets completely destroyed until it resembles WWII ruins... we call it "Fort Kleenex." ;)



Do you actually give them full boxes of Kleenex? I know mine would like it since I have to hide the kleenex during playtime. It seems like it would be such a mess.  I just give them 4-5 paper towels a day.
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Offline Suebee

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2005, 01:00:47 PM »
Oh my goodness no! LOL! Empty boxes... always empty.

I have the most productive nose in New York State... I go through tissues like crazy!

Offline kmw

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2005, 01:10:12 PM »
My aunt gives me her cast off parrot toys - her birds are super spoiled, and they have HIGH standards as to what toys they'll play with!   :yelcutelaugh:

Anyway, after a week or so of soaking up rat pee, they stink so bad, I have to take them out of the cages.  I think I can dishwasher them, Drew says "Not on your life."  So, I may have to wait until he's sleeping to try it :)  But, I personally wouldn't use any unsealed wooden object in the rat cage - which kind of negates the "pine shavings versus pine wood" debate for me :)
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Offline Piper

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2005, 04:21:19 PM »
By the way, I noticed that the link to the "Ask the Pet Doctor: Kevin Wright of the Phoenix Zoo Will Answer" published in the Arizona Public actually says that there are no scientific studies that show pine and cedar cause illness in rats and mice.

However, Debbie D's article on her web site lists scientific studies published in scholarly journals that cite the detrimental effects of pine and cedar phenols on the respitory systems of not only rats and mice, but humans as well!

I e-mailed the Zoo's address about the information from Kevin Wright and sent them the Debbie D link with the cited studies.  Maybe some of you could too so that the message actually gets across.  I just hate to think thousands of people read in the newspaper that pine was okay!

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2005, 05:17:31 PM »
All right.  Someone is full of rat raisins here.   Who is it?

Number one:   http://www.phoenixzoo.org/zoo/animals/kevinscolumn/november23.asp

or

Number two:  http://www.carefresh.ca/endorse/afrma.html


And what I really want to know is,  do I need to replace the balconies for my girls with something other than pine?

I'd have to say Kevin doesn't know what he's talking about.

As for solid pine objects, if they're untreated, I'd probably try them out and see what happens.

Offline Macie_and_Emma

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2005, 05:41:06 PM »
is there a difference between waterbased polyurethane and acrylic polyurethane?

it says "child safe" on the label, but is it (acrylic poly.) rat safe?

Offline amymckee

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2005, 06:17:46 PM »
Oh my goodness no! LOL! Empty boxes... always empty.

I have the most productive nose in New York State... I go through tissues like crazy!

Mine also have a steady supply. I have to make sure that I turn over the kleenex when they are out. Sometimes they'll pull out several at a time, but sometimes they'll get inside the box. Once it fell off the nightstand and landed face down with one trapped inside. Hahaha. That was hilarious.
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Offline PinkPaws

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2005, 08:52:50 PM »
Quote
Do you actually give them full boxes of Kleenex? I know mine would like it since I have to hide the kleenex during playtime. It seems like it would be such a mess.  I just give them 4-5 paper towels a day.

ah...I give my rats boxes of kleenex ( full ) for gifts such as Christmas or birthdays...they have such a blast unloading it and happily hopping off to build their uber- nests.... :BlueDumboSmile: and it's great fun to watch.
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Offline Auntie Crazy

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2005, 07:59:52 AM »
Quote
Do you actually give them full boxes of Kleenex? I know mine would like it since I have to hide the kleenex during playtime. It seems like it would be such a mess.  I just give them 4-5 paper towels a day.

ah...I give my rats boxes of kleenex ( full ) for gifts such as Christmas or birthdays...they have such a blast unloading it and happily hopping off to build their uber- nests.... :BlueDumboSmile: and it's great fun to watch.

Yes, it's hilarious to watch them with either the paper towels or the tissues. I can't give Mischief tissues anymore, however, because she runs to a corner, wads the tissue up like she's going to blow her own nose, then proceeds to eat it like it's some kind of delicacy. She'll rip of a tiny piece, chew, swallow, then rip off another. Very dainty-like.

Silly girl!   ::)
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Offline Suebee

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2005, 11:10:14 AM »
Yeah, my boys had started eating them, too... no more tissues after I discovered that.

Re: polyurethane... as long as it says child-safe, it's cool. Acrylic is water-based. ;)

Offline ratmomma

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2005, 11:27:17 AM »
I've had rats run off with USED kleenex. And start eating it. EEEEEEWWWWW! I have to really get on my kids to put kleenex in the trash immediately.
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Offline VegetarianPetLuvR

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2005, 11:32:41 AM »
I've had rats run off with USED kleenex. And start eating it. EEEEEEWWWWW! I have to really get on my kids to put kleenex in the trash immediately.

Mine just stash it under my pillow ::) Of course, they take it right OUT of the trash!

Offline babbetto

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Re: Pine ebay items - would you email the seller?
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2005, 07:53:39 PM »
Another great product to use to seal your wooden stuff is shellec. It's actually edible and is most often used for cutting boards. Just make sure you use the clear stuff.
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