Raw Diet

[*Kat*]

Dogs and cats are not human.  No - I wouldn't eat a piece of raw meat - if need be, I'd not be eating either.  Dogs and cats in the wild do eat raw - but those are fresh - still warm - just killed raw.  Plus we do not have wild animals in our homes.  Breeding has changed a lot.  The animals we have in our homes are not their wild counter parts.

[kim]

no, dogs and cats are not human. they remain canine and felines. and they remain carnivores. their teeth have not changed. their GI tract has not changed. their nutritional needs have not changed.

the cats and dogs we have in our homes are not so far from the wild animals as we would like to think. they have not "evolved" so much. They were, and still are, designed to eat meat. We have done them a disservice in the past 50 years, by creating pelletized so called "complete" diets for them, which are lacking in variety, nutrients, and simple physical properties that encourage and promote a healthy mouth and a healthy dog. we fed dogs for hundreds upon hundreds of years prior to kibble and they did fine. we have become lazy and would rather rely on ripping a bag open than making an effort to feed our animals appropriately.

breeding hasnt changed anything on the inside - we have altered their external appearance, but they haven't become anything except what they already were - dogs and cats. my dogs and cats are carnivores. they were not designed to eat pellets or kibble.


i believe firmly that feeding a proper species appropriate diet promotes optimum health.

[*Kat*]

no, dogs and cats are not human. they remain canine and felines. and they remain carnivores. their teeth have not changed. their GI tract has not changed. their nutritional needs have not changed.

the cats and dogs we have in our homes are not so far from the wild animals as we would like to think. they have not "evolved" so much. They were, and still are, designed to eat meat. We have done them a disservice in the past 50 years, by creating pelletized so called "complete" diets for them, which are lacking in variety, nutrients, and simple physical properties that encourage and promote a healthy mouth and a healthy dog. we fed dogs for hundreds upon hundreds of years prior to kibble and they did fine. we have become lazy and would rather rely on ripping a bag open than making an effort to feed our animals appropriately.

breeding hasnt changed anything on the inside - we have altered their external appearance, but they haven't become anything except what they already were - dogs and cats. my dogs and cats are carnivores. they were not designed to eat pellets or kibble.


i believe firmly that feeding a proper species appropriate diet promotes optimum health.

Are they teaching this is Vet classes now?

[~Lin]

Are they teaching this is Vet classes now?

You don't need to take vet classes to know what Kim is saying is right. Just do the research.

[kim]

teach what? that dogs and cats are carnivores? yup - 4 years confirmed what i already knew. those carnassial teeth aren't used for mushing up clover

your thinly veiled attempt at a potshot at me doesn't change anything, try again  - i dont have to be a vet, to know that proper nutrition is crucial to overall health of an animal OR a person. you dont have to be a vet to know that dental disease is one of the most prevalent (THE most prevalent, in some polls) disease our animals suffer from. you dont have to be a vet to know that our pets are carnivores, and that in every other species - cows, horses, lizards, wildlife, other exotic pets- we acknowledge that dietary and husbandry issues are one of, if not THE, TOP CAUSE of disease for these pets. it just so happens that i AM a vet, but that doesn't change the truth of what I am saying.

ive got to go to bed - maybe i will catch some national geographic, checking out those lions hunting bags of eukanuba. or do they prefer whiskas? 

[menagerie]

Are they teaching this is Vet classes now?

You don't need to take vet classes to know what Kim is saying is right. Just do the research.

I learned to feed raw from a local holistic vet, I'd been doing research for a while and she simplified the whole process for me. I feed mostly raw but have a premium kibble for emergencies and as treats for when the dogs go in their crates. I'd say they get 90-95% raw.

I too, believe in feeding a species specific foods. I have five different species at my house and they all get as close to a natural whole food diet as possible. For the dogs that means a diet of raw meat.

[trubandloki]

ive got to go to bed - maybe i will catch some national geographic, checking out those lions hunting bags of eukanuba. or do they prefer whiskas? 

Giggle!

I can just hear the whispering commentator describe the attack as the paper is shredded from the outside of the bag....

giggle!


Kim and you other smart raw diet people....

I agree that raw is best, but I am not in a position to feed raw right now (NO freezer space at all, we don't even have an ice cube tray in there, it is so crowded).

When we move I plan to buy a chest freezer and look around for the availability of appropriate things to feed raw.

At that point my dog will be 9yo, is it too late to switch her over? Am I best to just finish her life on kibble (good quality kibble)?  She is a choker/gulper, would it be too much of a risk to feed her raw with bones?

[Heather]

I checked out a potential place I could get raw items and the conversation was pretty much doomed before it started. The guy asked what I wanted the raw items for and I said I was looking into feeding my dog a raw diet. Some other things were said, and the conversation ended with him saying "Why don't you just raise rabbits for him?" because I mentioned Amos is a beagle and does not need 40 lbs of turkey necks (which is all they could've sold me cause they make more money off the peices they smoke and sell for dogs). I said I will not breed and butcher rabbits for my dog and thanked him for his time and walked out. I don't know where I can find raw meaty bones. The grocery store offers cuts of beef. I can get chicken for him as whole carcasses but beef, pork, and lamb are another story. Sigh.

[~Lin]

I was asking if the idea of the raw diet is now being presented at vet school, I have not seen any vet offices that encourage this idea.  I'm glad that you knew all before you went in, but I was wondering if this idea of raw diet is being presented now.

You act like raw diet is new? Asking how its being presented? Raw diet is THE original diet. THE correct diet. Its what cats and dogs are meant to eat. Still. Doesn't matter that they are domesticated, what happens when you have an indoor/outdoor animal? They hunt. Its natural. They often wont eat it, but thats because they are stuffed from junk food that they are being fed. Theres another vet encouraging raw diet at www.catinfo.org and she has some very informative pages.

[kim]

dr. tom lonsdale is a vet (author of raw meaty bones promote health).

dr. ian billinghurst is a vet (author and spearhead of the BARF movement and books).

i am certainly not alone.

[kim]

what difference does it make? is the start and end of one's education specifically what comes out of a professor's mouth? im sorry, but i believe education is more than one persons beliefs on a topic. nutrition education in vet school is limited at best, though my school spends more time than others. there is no consensus, and many clinicians are not familiar with the diet, others do not believe in it, and others feel that there is some severe lacking in current nutrition and thought, and believe that feeding a species appropriate diet is best.

and for the record kat, im not addressing you in my last post. i dont care what you *asked*, i was responding to lin.

would you care to share what you think and what you have been taught regarding animal nutrition, specifically companion animals?

[*Kat*]

what difference does it make? is the start and end of one's education specifically what comes out of a professor's mouth? im sorry, but i believe education is more than one persons beliefs on a topic. nutrition education in vet school is limited at best, though my school spends more time than others. there is no consensus, and many clinicians are not familiar with the diet, others do not believe in it, and others feel that there is some severe lacking in current nutrition and thought, and believe that feeding a species appropriate diet is best.

and for the record kat, im not addressing you in my last post. i dont care what you *asked*, i was responding to lin.

would you care to share what you think and what you have been taught regarding animal nutrition, specifically companion animals?

College / vet school education is not ONE professor.

[trubandloki]

I'm missing the point of why there is an argument....

I someone is thinking of raw diet, I would suggest they discuss it with their own personal vet before starting.  Learn when their personal vet has to say about it.

Why do we care where Kim learned what she learned about Raw diet and if it came from her college education or from some other source?  I am so missing why this matters.

[Heather]

I'm missing the point of why there is an argument....

I someone is thinking of raw diet, I would suggest they discuss it with their own personal vet before starting.  Learn when their personal vet has to say about it.

Why do we care where Kim learned what she learned about Raw diet and if it came from her college education or from some other source?  I am so missing why this matters.

Me too.

[kim]

Obviously its not one professor Kat - apparently I missed where any of us implied that was the case? My point (which everyone else seems to get) is that there are many people involved - so why would you think they would all agree on every single topic?  And part of higher education, is learning to THINK on your own, and figuring out what the flaws are in each argument, and how to critically evaluate the theories, the opinions, the hypothesis, and determining where you stand. And again, just because a professor did not state something, or does not believe in something, or DOES believe in something, does not make it true, factual, or right.

And again, what are your beliefs on nutrition, what is best for our companion animals, and what they were designed to eat?

[Kya_Blue]

Hello, I am fairly new to the board, but have been interested in the Raw Diet since I heard of it.  I will discuss it with my vet, etc., but the benefits sound wonderful. 

My concern is rather odd, but here goes- we have some pet chickens and I wanted to be sure that this wouldn't encourage our little girl puppers to be agressive toward them.  Likely, diet will not change their prey drive toward small animals, but better safe right? 

In addition, our little ladys are all under 15 lbs. I tried to check back through to find out but I may have missed it- what percentage of their body weight would I feed in raw meat?

Thanks for the info.

[kim]

kya, there is a raw feeding FAQ that i wrote up that will explain how much to feed, etc.

if your dogs arent chasing and eating the chickens now, then it shouldnt change for them



and trub, sorry i missed it before - but its NEVER too late to switch

[trubandloki]

and trub, sorry i missed it before - but its NEVER too late to switch

I will start now... getting the hubby thinking about it..... that way when I want to switch them over he will not be all shocked....
thanks!

[kim]

willow was switched to a raw diet at 8.5 years old when the rescue got her (i just continued it).
Mya was switched at 6-7 years old, and went from a very poor picky eater to a dog that would eat her meals 80% of the time and finish faster than Bowie!

[Kya_Blue]

Thanks for the reply.  I don't know how I overlooked the other thread. 

I'm sure Copper Henny will roost better knowing that the pups will not now be overly interested in her. 

It's good to hear that the diet can work for any age, because one of our pups is 11!

[Heather]

Ok this is freaking me out. Amos ate some raw chicken last night, a small wing (like the buffulo chicken ones) and a leg. He crunches the bones up well, or so I thought, but this morning I found that he had puked up some bone fragments.. many of which were VERY pointy and sharp. Do I need to feed him bigger pieces of chicken with the bone or is it a problem with his chewing (ie not thorough enough)? This is the second time this has happened, the first time though he ate some grass and puked it up plus some bone pieces. Maybe it was the bones all along. Anyone else have this problem? Oh and there was alot of mucus in his stool today. I wonder if those sharp bone pieces are cutting him up inside.

[kim]

it sounds like you need to give amos something he actually needs to fully chew - wings are very small and if a dog doesnt chew well, they can just swallow them whole.

i wouldnt worry much about the bones - my dogs have on and off vomited up a few things - bowie would vomit up turkey whenever he ate it, mya would vomit up chicken whenever she ate it. just last week rah vomited up 6 lbs of beef ribs that he ate too fast (that was gross).

a lot of dogs also vomit up when there is too much bone (which is also true with wings - not enough meat!).

the mucousy stools may have also just been to what you fed him - ltos of dogs go through some stool issues when they transition over to the diet (though some DONT - i have to admit, im on my fourth dog transitioned to the raw diet and none of them have had any prblem making the transition). there may have been too much fatty skin in there, etc.

[Heather]

Thought I would update for anyone considering a raw diet. Amos has been eating raw for over a month now and is healthier than I ever could've imagined. His coat is silky, shiny, and he BARELY sheds AT ALL. I brush and brush hoping to get some old dead hair out but I get nothing. Just silky fur running thru the comb. I've had to adjust the amount of food he gets a few times after he started getting alittle fat (he's slimming down now though) but I 'm pretty sure I've got it figured out. I love the flexability of the diet to adjust the amounts and when I am not going to be home around dinner time I can feed him his whole amount for the day and he's fine. His breath doesn't smell, he doesn't smell, and his itching is GONE. When he was on commercial food he'd itch miserably. I switched him on raw and a few times he did get dog food when my mom forgot he was on a raw diet (habit of feeding kibble with her dogs) and I would be able to tell he received kibble without her telling me because he itched and itched. He's been thru detox, hasn't puked anymore and his poo has been normal looking, not too dry or too mushy. He has more energy now (does a beagle REALLY need more energy though?) and I truly love shopping for him and making the disgusting vegetable/ground meat patties for him. I also feel I have a stronger bond with him because I can participate in his meal time (cutting up small boneless meat pieces and creating activities for him while he's still getting his dinner) instead of just setting down a bowl of kibble and him inhaling it. This was the best for my dog. I'm so grateful for this topic that introduced me to it and everyone who has helped us along the way.

[kim]

glad hes done so well does this mean youre KEEPING him

[osutigeress]

I got into this late, and just kind of skimmed the posts, but, my two cents...I believe a raw diet can work if you have the time and discuss it with a vet...I had a prof who was a vet and she told us horror stories about people bringing malnourished dogs fed a homemade raw diet to her practice and removing bones from dog's throats from people who just kind of made it up as they go....she was very anti-raw diet for that reason...but, suggested if you absolutely must feed a raw diet, grind the chicken up bones and all.