Author Topic: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*  (Read 3632 times)

Offline SilverTycho

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a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« on: August 12, 2007, 12:22:50 AM »
I've done a little research on raw diets in the past, but I still don't know much. Maybe I just don't know enough about it to even find the best research places. So, I was hoping you guys could help.

I want to feed Cinderella raw. First of all, what are some articles that I could show my mom? Last time I mentioned raw, she acted like it was the worst idea ever.

Cinderella is 7-8 years old. Is that too old to even do a big switch like this?

How do I know how much to feed her? She's 44lbs. I'm used to just free feeding kibble so I'd have no clue how much to feed her. I'd ask my vet, but my area is pretty small and for some reason, I doubt her vet would really even know. According to kim's post, I should feed her 1.5lbs a day. Is that enough?

Where do you go to find a store? A butcher? How do you find them? I did notice a butcher stop near the humane society, though.

What kind of meat do you stay away from? Aren't chicken bones bad?

Will all dogs eat raw or will some simply ignore it? When I give Cinderella large pieces of food, she sometimes walks around whining with it like she doesn't know how to eat it. She has gotten used to and now loves her strips of dehydrated duck breast, though.

Is the meat all they need or do they need supplement or veggies (though I'd think they wouldn't need plants)?

Hopefully someone can answer these questions for me :)

edit:
I just found Kim's raw feeding FAQ from 2004 which helped, but I still have some of the questions. A few more questions I have are:
How expensive is raw compared to good kibble?
How do you transition a dog?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 08:57:25 PM by sunshineILMI »
Erin

Offline Heather

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Re: a few raw diets questions
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2007, 03:59:31 AM »
1. It's never too late to switch a dog onto raw. Some will take longer to transition but most readily accept it, unlike cats who are more finicky.

2. You feed 2-4% of her body weight.

3. I buy meat from all over. Processing plants for pork, beef bones/scraps and organs, whole chickens/turkey/game hen at the grocery store. I get scraps of whatever's in season of venison and various game birds from local hunters. Ask around your family and friends and you'll find someone that hunts who can save some stuff for you.

4. For what to feed, look here: http://www.rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

5. Most dogs will eat it at first, however it's a sensory overload for some. Imagine if you ate Insta-Meal pellets your whole life and then all of the sudden someone set a plate of fresh fruits/veggies in front of you. It'd be a huge change!

6. All dogs need are raw meaty bones, some muscle meat (without bone) and organ meats.

7. I feed Amos on $10-15/mo and a good quality kibble (I consider it EVO because of his grain allergies and because it's a dry version of raw) would run me around $35-40/mo.

8. The best way I've found was to pretty much go cold turkey and cut off the kibble. You can join the rawfeeding group on yahoo an learn from the people there too. Those lists are a great resource!

And to intro your mom to the idea, involve her in the learning and start out small meals with Cinderella. It's pretty convincing when you see a dog eating and ENJOYING her food.. very unlike dogs who inhale kibble and they're done. It just doesn't ofer any interaction. And you both will love the fact the bones will clean up tartar/plaque and smelly dog breath. It won't disappear right away but in a few months you'll begin to notice it waning. Prevents having to get an expensive dental done with risky anesthesia.

Offline SilverTycho

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Re: a few raw diets questions
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2007, 02:24:07 PM »
Ok a few more questions- if I go cold turkey, how should I start it? How do I make sure she doesn't choke? People have said to just watch for small bones, but how do I do that when she's eating a "big" piece of meat?
Erin

Offline Heather

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Re: a few raw diets questions
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2007, 07:22:08 PM »
Start out holding food in your hand so she can't gulp. Once she realizes she will need to chew she'll be fine. Start with chicken legs, wings, backs and always make sure the food cannot be swallowed in one piece until you know Cinderella will chew it.

Offline ~Lin

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Re: a few raw diets questions
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2007, 01:00:13 AM »
Or just give her big pieces with big bones. She can't exactly swallow a rack of pork ribs whole. Kim's suggestion is to feed meals that are bigger than the dogs head. They HAVE to chew. When you start out, use only one protein source for a while and then switch to a different one. She may go through a detox period with bad diarrhea, so get some canned pumpkin in advance ;) Dogs can also fast for a day, and theres a lot more freedom with raw. You could feed 1.5 lbs most days, then feed 3 lbs and fast a day, or feed 1 lb and then 2 lbs the next day to make up for it etc.

Offline kalijo

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Re: a few raw diets questions
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2007, 04:55:13 AM »
I wish my dogs could go raw, but i have the same problem as sunshineILMI... my mom wont go for it.

Is feeding raw really messy?... would i need to disinfect the floors every time they eat, wash their face, and front legs, etc?

Offline SilverTycho

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Re: a few raw diets questions
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2007, 08:56:48 PM »
I'm discouraged now. I bought some chicken thigh and was ready to begin Cinderella on raw soon, but then I talked to someone. I went to the local dog food store (they sell natural dog food), and the lady said feeding strictly raw would increase the chance I'd malnourish the dog. There, they sell pre-made meat that has bone and vitamins and stuff in it. She seemed to think I wasn't being too smart. She said I'd need lots of vitamins and supplements and some other things. Do you know what she's talking about? I don't want to make my dog sick. I've talked to people online and no one mentioned this stuff. I don't know anyone in person who can help me. I know Heather, but most of my contact with her is online. How do I find a vet or person who'll help me? I have a feeling my dog's vet would tell me that feeding raw is bad.

edit: I wanted to say that I did not to intend to only feed chicken. I bought the chicken thighs just to see what she'd do. I am doing my research before I feed her any raw, though :)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 10:31:18 PM by sunshineILMI »
Erin

Offline fearlessella

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2007, 09:59:43 PM »
You cannot just feed chicken legs every day & expect to have a balanced diet.  I am not sure of the amounts of things needed, but Heather could probably hep out with that. 

When I feed raw I buy the patties from Natures Variety.  That may be what the sales lady was talking about.  I also buy the bones too.  My dogs do well with any kind of bone I feed them.

Sorry I am not the best help.  I am just kind of learning about this stuff too.  I feed kibble, raw, and canned.  I switch constantly.
The Dogs: Macy, Laynee, Roman, Sicili, & Cappy 🐕
The Rats: Astrid,  Imogen,  and Yvaine 🐀
The Cat: Charm, Kitten & foster kittens Mad Hatter & Mad Max!  🐈

So many 4 legged babies are missed.  Alice & Whimsy are the most recent.  ❤

Offline ~Lin

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2007, 10:02:57 PM »
Yes, your vet very well may tell you its bad. I took a foster dog to the E-vet for throwing up blood and bloody diarrhea and the ignorant vet first tried to blame it on the raw diet. The sad thing is, most vets are ignorant about nutrition. They get 1-2 semesters at MOST of nutrition, and thats broad based nutrition that is usually sponsered by companies such as Science Diet and Eukanuba. I was talking with JulesMichy the other day, she was telling me that its 1-2 semesters of elective on nutrition. Thats not indepth, often is composed of incorrect or lacking information, and it all depends on if the vet even remembers any of it.

If you do the research, and you SHOULD do the research before feeding raw, you will understand that it is the best diet there is. And then when you start feeding raw, you will see the incredible changes and know that you are in fact feeding a species correct diet.

Yes, if you feed only chicken thighs your dog would be malnourished. Yes, if you fed only chicken your dog would be malnourished. But a dog fed a correct raw diet is incredibly more nourished than ANY kibble fed dog. You need to feed the correct balance of meat, bones, and organs. A good variety because while one meat is high in something its low in something that a different meat is high in. The more variety the better. You need to have the correct calcium phosphorus ratio.

Please, do not be discouraged. But you DO need to know the facts. Because in reality, yes it would be better to feed a kibble or canned diet than an unbalanced raw diet. However its not complicated to learn, and theres SO much information out there, and its well worth the effort when you see the changes in your dog.

K9s Naturally (I've ordered from them) has a pro-raw vet listing here http://www.k9snaturally.com/prorawvets.htm

Here are some info links:

http://rawfed.com/myths/

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm

http://www.rawlearning.com/

http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/PFIC.html

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/petfood1.html

Offline SilverTycho

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2007, 10:04:22 PM »
You cannot just feed chicken legs every day & expect to have a balanced diet.  I am not sure of the amounts of things needed, but Heather could probably hep out with that. 

When I feed raw I buy the patties from Natures Variety.  That may be what the sales lady was talking about.  I also buy the bones too.  My dogs do well with any kind of bone I feed them.

Sorry I am not the best help.  I am just kind of learning about this stuff too.  I feed kibble, raw, and canned.  I switch constantly.

Oh, I wasn't going to feed her only chicken legs. I bought those and I planned to give her one of those first to just see what she'd do. If I feed raw, I'd feed a variety of different meats. And yes, it was Natures Variety that the woman mentioned.
Erin

Offline SilverTycho

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2007, 10:43:20 PM »
Yes, your vet very well may tell you its bad. I took a foster dog to the E-vet for throwing up blood and bloody diarrhea and the ignorant vet first tried to blame it on the raw diet. The sad thing is, most vets are ignorant about nutrition. They get 1-2 semesters at MOST of nutrition, and thats broad based nutrition that is usually sponsered by companies such as Science Diet and Eukanuba. I was talking with JulesMichy the other day, she was telling me that its 1-2 semesters of elective on nutrition. Thats not indepth, often is composed of incorrect or lacking information, and it all depends on if the vet even remembers any of it.

If you do the research, and you SHOULD do the research before feeding raw, you will understand that it is the best diet there is. And then when you start feeding raw, you will see the incredible changes and know that you are in fact feeding a species correct diet.

Yes, if you feed only chicken thighs your dog would be malnourished. Yes, if you fed only chicken your dog would be malnourished. But a dog fed a correct raw diet is incredibly more nourished than ANY kibble fed dog. You need to feed the correct balance of meat, bones, and organs. A good variety because while one meat is high in something its low in something that a different meat is high in. The more variety the better. You need to have the correct calcium phosphorus ratio.

Please, do not be discouraged. But you DO need to know the facts. Because in reality, yes it would be better to feed a kibble or canned diet than an unbalanced raw diet. However its not complicated to learn, and theres SO much information out there, and its well worth the effort when you see the changes in your dog.

K9s Naturally (I've ordered from them) has a pro-raw vet listing here http://www.k9snaturally.com/prorawvets.htm

Here are some info links:

http://rawfed.com/myths/

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm

http://www.rawlearning.com/

http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/PFIC.html

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/petfood1.html


Thanks for the links, Lin! I'll be sure to read them! Don't worry, I wasn't going to only feed chicken. I've been reading about raw and what to eat. I got it to see how Cinderella would react to it. I plan to learn more before I feed anything, though. I talked to Heather on the phone before I even bought the chicken, and she suggested the chicken. If I'm lucky, she'll help me more  ;D I'm still a bit discouraged, though. I never mentioned the chicken to the lady. I simply asked what she thought about feeding raw, and she said she knew a lot.
Erin

Offline ~Lin

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2007, 10:54:39 PM »
I didnt mean that I was thinking you would only feed chicken, just making a statement :)

This woman, I'm assuming she was an employee of the pet food store? It sounds like she was trying to discourage you on purpose, to get you to purchase the (outrageously overpriced) already complete raw diet from the store. I started out feeding NV patties and they are incredibly expensive. I bought 2 bags  of the large patties to start supplementing raw, and never went back for more. Prey-model (ribs, necks, whole poultry, etc) is better than ground because the chewing and consuming of the raw bone is what cleans the teeth.

And I'm sure Heather will continue helping you :) Shes awesome and knows a ton.

Offline SilverTycho

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2007, 12:03:23 AM »
I didnt mean that I was thinking you would only feed chicken, just making a statement :)

This woman, I'm assuming she was an employee of the pet food store? It sounds like she was trying to discourage you on purpose, to get you to purchase the (outrageously overpriced) already complete raw diet from the store. I started out feeding NV patties and they are incredibly expensive. I bought 2 bags  of the large patties to start supplementing raw, and never went back for more. Prey-model (ribs, necks, whole poultry, etc) is better than ground because the chewing and consuming of the raw bone is what cleans the teeth.

And I'm sure Heather will continue helping you :) Shes awesome and knows a ton.

Yeah, when she told me the price of them, I almost died lol.. I wouldn't be able to feed myself if I fed Cinderella those every day. However, I think she believed in what she was saying since she mentioned feeding her dogs. I don't think the store sells the vitamins and supplements she was talking about. That's what discouraged me, even though I know lots of people don't believe raw is good anyway.
Erin

Offline ~Lin

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2007, 12:29:58 AM »
if your feeding a balanced and varied raw diet, theres no need to supplement. I do supplement with fish oil, and a joint combo since my dogs are 70+ lbs. I havent really noticed a change since I started adding the fish oil, but I starting giving them it after reading a thread here about it. I dont remember why other than a bunch of people recommended it so I went out and bought a supersize bottle lol. If I can't remember a good reason why I'm doing it I probably wont buy another bottle since I'm not seeing an improvement. However since I started feeding raw.... Piper, my sickly cat that probably came close to dying, is doing better than I ever thought she could. At one point she dropped from an already thin frame down to 5 lbs, and was throwing up and having diarrhea daily. Test after test after test, and the vet couldnt figure out what was wrong. Now, she is almost 10 lbs while still being lean. I never thought she would fill out this much though! And Lorelai, a cat I adopted came to me with multiple health problems including horrible food allergies. She would break out all over in these weird scabby hives, and developed abscesses on her face from food allergies. One on a raw diet, all of that stopped and she looks wonderful. No one else had bad issues before going raw, but everyone has had an improvement since I switched. Their fur is so much better, their teeth cleaner, they are more active, and I swear to god more affectionate. The difference between kibble poop and raw poop is wonderful :D:D:D And I even get compliments from people about my dogs breath.

Offline SilverTycho

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2007, 12:34:56 AM »
Lin, is everything on the rawfed.com page accurate information (other pages aside just the myths one)? I want to be sure I'm reading good information. Also, how do I feed whole animals if she's only supposed to get 1-1.5lbs? She's food aggressive (though she's never attempted to bite, just growled) so I don't want to just grab the food anyway. Heather gave me a tip on helping the food aggression, though. Plus, when I first start, it'd probably help if I fed parts that weighed what she needs so I don't go wrong and feed too much or too little.
Erin

Offline ~Lin

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2007, 01:49:59 AM »
I'm pretty sure anything on that site is accurate. And yes, you definitely need to weigh out things. But like I mentioned before, you don't have to feed daily or the same amount daily. And there is a lot of small poultry. Say you buy a 3 lb chicken on a Monday. You offer the entire thing. If she eats it all, you don't feed again until Wednesday. If she doesnt eat it all, you offer whats left on Tuesday and then weigh out 1.5 lbs on Wednesday. As for the food aggression, Heather has made great progress with Amos on that issue. For the not grabbing the food, teach her that she's not allowed to have anything until you give the command. My dogs know "wait". We use this for many things, wait for me to open the truck and tell you to jump in, wait for me to gather the leashes before you can jump out, wait for me to say its ok to leave your crate/go outside/start eating. I feed in their crates because then theres no mess made. They go into their crates and I tell them wait and set their food inside then close the crate. I can stand up, walk around, they have to watch me and are not allowed to eat until I say eat. I also will often make them wait for a treat. They can't take it from me even though I'm holding it 1 cm from their nose until I say to take it. Does she take things gently or grab treats?

Offline Heather

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2007, 01:58:31 AM »
Ok, I feel I can respond fully now (sorry about last night when you called, I was with a noisy group of ex coworkers having dinner).

First off, I'm very passionate about nutrition, both canine and feline, and it sickens me that someone would be so cruel as to discourage you from feeding what is APPROPRIATE for Cinderella just to get some extra sales on some NV. First off, I am all for any improvement in diet, and have fed NV only twice- first time our other dogs wouldn't eat it and second time I got a 3 lb bag free from a rep. I can say I would never pay for the stuff because it's overpriced and contains all sorts of unnecessary things like fruits and vegetables. Now, some people choose to feed them, that's their choice, but if I'm spending that much for raw, I want it 100% meat and I'll go to the store and buy my own veggies and fruits for cheaper. I can't tell you how many times I've lost sales (and Pat doesn't care because she advocates raw as well when people want to try it out) when people ask me about the safety of raw etc etc and should they just buy EVO for the dog to which I reply if they can feed raw, DO IT. Even if we ever did sell NV, I'd never tell anyone it's better than REAL raw food.

Secondly, I can almost guarantee that your vet will tell you the same thing- you're basically killing your dog. Lin is dead on with the "nutrition" education vet students receive, and they also get kickbacks from companies that stock the shelves at the office. I know I have told this story before but it makes a very strong statement. When I first found that Amos had a corn allergy (and later a wheat and then rice), I talked to my vet about getting an allergy panel done to see what all he was allergic to food wise (which I later found out the tests are ineffective). She asked what I was feeding, I said raw meats, organs, bones. She said I should feed the Science Diet sensitive stomach food instead if he's got allergies. HELLO the first 3 ingredients or whatever in that food is corn! I've talked to many vets, they all tell me raw is bad. It goes in one ear and out the other. I don't feel I even need to defend my choice anymore because they are so in-the-box thinking that their minds just cannot be opened to even research it.

Lin gave you excellent links. I strongly suggest a raw feeding list on yahoo. You don't need someone in your area to help. Heck, I credit most of my learning to Kim and she's on the east coast! Through all the websites, talking to Lin and other raw feeders here I learned the basics, and let Amos teach me the rest. I'm going to go hippy here for a second but it's an amazing feeling to be in tune with your animals like you will be after feeding a species appropriate diet. I'm to the point I can look at Amos and judge his weight accurately. I know when he needs a few extra meals and I know when he needs to drop a few (like now :P). All the benefits you read about when you feed raw are all things I have personally experienced with Amos. His tartar caked teeth are now white and pretty. He doesn't have the typical "hound dog" smell. His breath doesn't smell like something died in there and has been decomposing for 3 years. I'm to the point I nearly hurl whenever a dog gets in my face and has bad breath because I'm not used to it at all. Amos's breath literally has NO smell. His coat is shinier and he sheds less. More energy! And the best thing is that he gets enjoyment and stimulation from his food. I was reading Dr Pitcairn's book and the section on diet and nutrition. He says the one thing raw food diet gives an animal that processed foods never can is life. I get such an enjoyment watching Amos and Waverli eat because they just enjoy it so much. I showed Wav a piece of kibble the other day and she had no clue what it was and refused to eat it. That made me feel so good! You don't need supplements with a raw diet. Cinderella will get everything she needs. I feed a few lobes of chicken liver each week, heart (meal size) twice a week and lung or other organ meats once a week, replacing one of the two meals of heart so he's not getting too much organ meals. I cut up whole poultry carcasses whenever I get them into meal sizes and freeze them. I don't measure bone in each one.. sometimes He'll get a piece that's all meat and sometimes it's mostly bone. The beauty of this diet is that it's SO flexible like Lin described. You don't have a strict feeding schedule, though I do recommend at least 5 different meat sources not including the organs.

I know it seems overwhelming but you'll soon come to appreciate how simple it really is and you'll have fun shopping! And after you get around to the different stores you'll quickly realize where to get the best prices and quality. Even if you only find meats at 99c/lb, Cinderella can be fed on $30 per month. A high quality food would run around $50-60 for a dog her size. Yea, some foods will be more than 99c/lb but chicken is most often found at 59-79c/lb. Instead of going to the grocery store for everything, seek out the processing plants in your area and get beef/pork scraps or anything they will give you cheap and sometimes free (minus fat.. butraw scrap bones are cheap sources of chewing fun for Cinderella)! Chicken feet for example are EXCELLENT sources of glucosamine, yet are thrown away as by products. It may sound gross, but get heads and necks when possible (small food items, not cow or pig heads). Processing plants during deer season may be able to supply you with enough venison scraps for the year. Just ask them to save it for you. Bird hunters too may give you some of their game. Many people shoot for sport and have no idea how to cook wild game so they give it away. That is excellent for us raw feeders and the bird isn't wasted (most people just use the breast meat and toss the rest but you'll use it all for food).

Hang in there Erin, and try not to let people make you feel bad or make you question yourself. You are doing the best thing for Cinderella and if people want to be an expert on why you shouldn't then they don't deserve your attention. It's ultimately up to you who you choose to listen to, and you've got a great group of people here that will help you every step of the way. :wave2:

Offline SilverTycho

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2007, 03:26:11 PM »
Lin, she does take the food gently from me. It's when she starts eating it that she growls.

Can you guys please tell me what you've fed over the last few days or week so I get a general idea of what other people feed?

Thanks for your help :)
Erin

Offline Heather

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2007, 05:15:27 PM »
I don't even remember much what I've fed. I'm running real low on meat too so it won't seem like alot. This morning I fed a cup of ZiwiPeak (dried raw basically). Yesterday he got half of a trout. Day before he got a large beef rib. I think it was chicken and liver before that or some turkey. As long as you have variety and don't constantly feed the same thing all the time then you won't have a problem.

Offline AngelZOO

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Re: a few raw diets questions *update discouraged now*
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2007, 07:40:43 PM »
If you are not ready to take the plunge into a home made raw diet, then try a pre-packaged raw food first.

I used to feed the Nature's Variety, and Primal to cats and dogs.

I prefer the diet greatly (though it's not for every dog and cat). I can't afford to feed it right now as it can be costly.

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