Author Topic: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...  (Read 1885 times)

Offline barefootpoetry

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My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« on: September 12, 2009, 08:28:22 PM »
....but she has lots of high-whites on her babies page. I told her what little I knew about high-whites being more at risk for developing megacolon, but I don't honestly know if she should be concerned about this breeder. What do you think? Here is a link to the webpage of the babies. http://cbe-rodents.webs.com/currentlitters.htm

Offline Finners

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2009, 08:45:22 PM »
Ask the breeder what colour bases are behind their marked lines.  If bred correctly, marked lines will not show MC.  I'm not sure how that ties in with variegated and dalmatian lines, however.

Offline Blackthorn

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2009, 08:48:49 PM »
I'd avoid that breeder like the plague.  She is breeding a ton of different species of animals, is breeding rats from unpedigreed stock with unknown genetics (from feeder bins and pet store stock) and is a feeder breeder.  Lots of red flags all over the place... breeding aggressive rats, breeding rats many, many times (males and females), etc... I'd suggest your friend look elsewhere.

http://blackwolfrattery.com/article.html

http://blackwolfrattery.com/redflags.html

There are much better breeders out there, and there are also rescues to consider as well.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 08:55:20 PM by Blackthorn »

Offline MattosaurusREX

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2009, 08:52:17 PM »
*I* wouldn't advise using that breeder, for whatever my advice is worth. From the about section of her site:

Quote
My rattery started very innocently. I planned on getting a few large snakes, and wanted a reliable food source for them.  I looked into buying frozen rodents locally, but this was cost prohibitive.  I looked into commercial feeder rodent producing companies, but I could not bring myself to fuel such an industry - I can't imagine that all those rodents could be happy, housed in such immense numbers.  I decided though it can be a bit pricier, that the right decision for myself and my small needs would be to raise happy, humane, well taken care of rats.  Raising them myself would be the only way to assure myself that the rats are well loved and well cared for. My rattery is proof that not all feeder breeders are evil. I try to work on educating feeder breeders on the proper and humane care of their feeder rodents.  Snakes need to eat too, but that does not mean that the rodents don't have a right to a happy humane life, too.

I bought my first pair, Newton and Darleen.  Soon after, I purchased 2 other girls, Ethel and Pook. Pook, a rather normal seeming black hooded doe, is the main reason rats have become a side hobby.  She is excessively friendly, knows her name, likes to give kisses and wants nothing more than to be your best friend. Newton, too, is friendly. His favorite thing to do is play with me, i tickle his backside and he turns around to wrestle.  From there I kept babies from litters or brought home new stock.  I learned how rat genetics work after I got many siamese babies out of Darleen and Newton.  For my 19th birthday my father built me two HUGE cages using a metal shelving unit that we've had in our basement since forever. We put walls on the back and sides, and built screen and wood front doors.  They have turned out excellently and can house a bunch of rats. The sections can be divided and provide isolated areas for nursing does or new stock.  The excellent personality of rats as well as their wonderful variation in genetics that result in many 'project' lines that I can work with trying to achieve a certain color.  My mice are less my pets but are of course still properly cared for and handled humanely.

I now only pair rats with the idea in mind of creating excellent quality pets, and only as an offshoot do I produce feeders mainly for my own use. Many ask how I can love both the feeder animals as well as the animals that consume them.   I do have a few snakes at this point, and I'm looking to expand my collection slowly over time - both of rodents and reptiles. I do not, however, feed live.  All of my reptiles will accept pre killed rodents. CO2 is a humane method of euthanization.  CO2 gas is not painful and actually puts the rodents into a painless sleep and death quickly follows.   Cervical dislocation is also another humane method that involves severing the skull from the cervical (neck) bones, severing the nerve cord. This can be achieved in a very quick motion.


Offline Finners

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2009, 09:03:06 PM »
I'm sure you guys can find a better breeder in the area- I know Michigan can do better.

http://www.ratster.com/breederlinks.html

Offline barefootpoetry

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2009, 09:21:38 PM »
THank you guys so much. I will link her to this thread, so if you have any more advice, please keep it coming!

Offline lilspaz68

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2009, 10:52:52 AM »
*I* wouldn't advise using that breeder, for whatever my advice is worth. From the about section of her site:

Quote
My rattery started very innocently. I planned on getting a few large snakes, and wanted a reliable food source for them.  I looked into buying frozen rodents locally, but this was cost prohibitive.  I looked into commercial feeder rodent producing companies, but I could not bring myself to fuel such an industry - I can't imagine that all those rodents could be happy, housed in such immense numbers.  I decided though it can be a bit pricier, that the right decision for myself and my small needs would be to raise happy, humane, well taken care of rats.  Raising them myself would be the only way to assure myself that the rats are well loved and well cared for. My rattery is proof that not all feeder breeders are evil. I try to work on educating feeder breeders on the proper and humane care of their feeder rodents.  Snakes need to eat too, but that does not mean that the rodents don't have a right to a happy humane life, too.

I bought my first pair, Newton and Darleen.  Soon after, I purchased 2 other girls, Ethel and Pook. Pook, a rather normal seeming black hooded doe, is the main reason rats have become a side hobby.  She is excessively friendly, knows her name, likes to give kisses and wants nothing more than to be your best friend. Newton, too, is friendly. His favorite thing to do is play with me, i tickle his backside and he turns around to wrestle.  From there I kept babies from litters or brought home new stock.  I learned how rat genetics work after I got many siamese babies out of Darleen and Newton.  For my 19th birthday my father built me two HUGE cages using a metal shelving unit that we've had in our basement since forever. We put walls on the back and sides, and built screen and wood front doors.  They have turned out excellently and can house a bunch of rats. The sections can be divided and provide isolated areas for nursing does or new stock.  The excellent personality of rats as well as their wonderful variation in genetics that result in many 'project' lines that I can work with trying to achieve a certain color.  My mice are less my pets but are of course still properly cared for and handled humanely.

I now only pair rats with the idea in mind of creating excellent quality pets, and only as an offshoot do I produce feeders mainly for my own use. Many ask how I can love both the feeder animals as well as the animals that consume them.   I do have a few snakes at this point, and I'm looking to expand my collection slowly over time - both of rodents and reptiles. I do not, however, feed live.  All of my reptiles will accept pre killed rodents. CO2 is a humane method of euthanization.  CO2 gas is not painful and actually puts the rodents into a painless sleep and death quickly follows.   Cervical dislocation is also another humane method that involves severing the skull from the cervical (neck) bones, severing the nerve cord. This can be achieved in a very quick motion.



*shudder*  RED FLAGS everywhere!!!

Page 1

Beatrix X ?   (She has NO clue who the buck was??)

The older rats are all unknown X unknown (petstore), the younger rats are obviously bred from these unknown rats.  WOW how can she call herself a breeder???  Oh I cannot look at this site any longer.  :eek:

Offline Navi

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2009, 11:49:51 AM »
I'm sorry to farm owners, but how could anyone raise animals for there meat??  :-\ I'd never be able to do that.. I would love to have "farm animals" someday, but i'd never kill them.. My boyfriend's family always buys a pig to raise for Thanksgiving.. bleh.  :BlueDumboBigEyes:


I don't see how she could own all them animals and still give them all the attention they need. I would not buy from her.


-bre

Offline mandycoot

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2009, 11:59:39 AM »
Wow. I'm appalled by this "breeder."

I'm sorry to farm owners, but how could anyone raise animals for there meat??  :-\ I'd never be able to do that.. I would love to have "farm animals" someday, but i'd never kill them.. My boyfriend's family always buys a pig to raise for Thanksgiving.. bleh.  :BlueDumboBigEyes:

They probably live a better life up until slaughter than the animals in factory farms. :-\

Offline Schrute

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2009, 12:09:45 PM »
They probably live a better life up until slaughter than the animals in factory farms. :-\

Agreed!

Offline Cathie

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2009, 12:16:14 PM »
If you are in Michigan, Rat Dippity Rattery breads for both health and temperment. On her web page you can read testimonials from many of her customers. Also whenever you have a problem you can email her and she will get right back to you. Our rat from her is an absolutely loveable, kissie rat. She was very well socialized when we picked her up and very healthy.

Offline Schrute

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2009, 12:29:11 PM »
Without getting in to too much detail or saying anything directly, let me just advise to research any breeder carefully, going beyond what is posted on their website, before picking that particular breeder. :)

Offline lilspaz68

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2009, 01:17:09 PM »
If you are in Michigan, Rat Dippity Rattery breads for both health and temperment. On her web page you can read testimonials from many of her customers. Also whenever you have a problem you can email her and she will get right back to you. Our rat from her is an absolutely loveable, kissie rat. She was very well socialized when we picked her up and very healthy.

No offense cathie but I really don't see this breeder as a lot better.  NO pics of her breeding rats, no peds, no links to anything but the breeding page, and her store.

Where are the pairings?  Where is the background on the parents?  Why is she only learning the genetics of the markings of her rats in the past year when she's been breeding for SEVEN years now?

3 litters bred on Jan. 1/09, 2 born on Feb. 6, one on Feb. 15
2 more bred on Jan 24/09, they were born Feb. 17 and 22nd

That's 5 litters under 3 weeks of age...HOW can any breeder socialize that many babies properly? 

She has had TWENTY-FIVE litters born in 2009 alone up to September 2nd....
FOUR back to back litters (babies may have been 4 weeks)..a huge NO-NO in the responsible and ethical breeding world. Most breeders give them months to recover between litters, and usually only breed a female 2-3 times maximum.
You do the math on how old these babies were when mom was put back in to get pregnant again.  :-\

02/06 DOB for litter - Bandit
Bandit 2nd litter put in with male 03/06, gave birth 03/29
02/15 DOB for litter Hemmi
Hemmie 2nd litter put in with male 03/13, gave birth on 04/07
02/17 DOB for litter Shimmer
Shimmer 03/01 -/03/23
03/1 DOB for litter Wheatie
Wheatie 2nd litter put in with male 04/05, gave birth 04/26

And one attempt at a back to back litter

03/31 Blessing
Update: 05/01/09 I am putting Blessing in for another breeding as I'm having people write me begging me for more Russian blue ratlets.








Offline Schrute

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2009, 01:29:54 PM »
If you are in Michigan, Rat Dippity Rattery breads for both health and temperment. On her web page you can read testimonials from many of her customers. Also whenever you have a problem you can email her and she will get right back to you. Our rat from her is an absolutely loveable, kissie rat. She was very well socialized when we picked her up and very healthy.

No offense cathie but I really don't see this breeder as a lot better.  NO pics of her breeding rats, no peds, no links to anything but the breeding page, and her store.

Where are the pairings?  Where is the background on the parents?  Why is she only learning the genetics of the markings of her rats in the past year when she's been breeding for SEVEN years now?

3 litters bred on Jan. 1/09, 2 born on Feb. 6, one on Feb. 15
2 more bred on Jan 24/09, they were born Feb. 17 and 22nd

That's 5 litters under 3 weeks of age...HOW can any breeder socialize that many babies properly? 

She has had TWENTY-FIVE litters born in 2009 alone up to September 2nd....
FOUR back to back litters (babies may have been 4 weeks)..a huge NO-NO in the responsible and ethical breeding world. Most breeders give them months to recover between litters, and usually only breed a female 2-3 times maximum.
You do the math on how old these babies were when mom was put back in to get pregnant again.  :-\

02/06 DOB for litter - Bandit
Bandit 2nd litter put in with male 03/06, gave birth 03/29
02/15 DOB for litter Hemmi
Hemmie 2nd litter put in with male 03/13, gave birth on 04/07
02/17 DOB for litter Shimmer
Shimmer 03/01 -/03/23
03/1 DOB for litter Wheatie
Wheatie 2nd litter put in with male 04/05, gave birth 04/26

And one attempt at a back to back litter

03/31 Blessing
Update: 05/01/09 I am putting Blessing in for another breeding as I'm having people write me begging me for more Russian blue ratlets.

Be careful, because the last time I stated these very same concerns about this exact same breeder, I was mercilessly harassed and verbally abused via PM from one of this breeder's BYB buddies. ::) Don't forget the report button, Shelagh!

Offline Navi

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2009, 01:30:39 PM »
Wow. I'm appalled by this "breeder."

I'm sorry to farm owners, but how could anyone raise animals for there meat??  :-\ I'd never be able to do that.. I would love to have "farm animals" someday, but i'd never kill them.. My boyfriend's family always buys a pig to raise for Thanksgiving.. bleh.  :BlueDumboBigEyes:

They probably live a better life up until slaughter than the animals in factory farms. :-\

Perhaps some do - I would never be able to do it.

(But I've seen alot of behind the scenes since dating him, and I wouldn't put all 'small family farms' up on a pedestal for treating their animals well.)



-bre

Offline Schrute

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2009, 01:34:06 PM »
We're not saying that farms treat animals well... it's just an example of how badly BYB'ers/factory farms treat their breeding stock. To say that these animals are treated worse than animals raised to feed is making a pretty extreme statement, IMO. It's making a comparison to prove a point.

Offline lilspaz68

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2009, 01:42:12 PM »


Be careful, because the last time I stated these very same concerns about this exact same breeder, I was mercilessly harassed and verbally abused via PM from one of this breeder's BYB buddies. ::) Don't forget the report button, Shelagh!

Hahaha, that's fine. :)  Its all there in black and white, I just pointed it out.  Bring on the PM's...I can ignore them.  :wink5:

Oh to be fair, I must add there are peds (lots of unknown's in there guys!) if you look at the bottom and squint REALLY hard there's a little bar with teeny writing on it.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 02:04:34 PM by lilspaz68 »


Offline Cathie

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2009, 07:52:48 PM »
LILspaz,if you know how to navigate rat dippity's web page you will see that there are pictures of all her bredding rats. On the planned breeding page if you click on the buck or the doe it has a picture and there pedigree going back 4-5 generations. she also may breed alot of litters but she has homes for all her babies. She also has worked with breeders that this site says are reputable. I would suggest you contact her personally with your concerns rather than state incorrect info on this forum.

Offline Siana

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2009, 08:26:17 PM »
LILspaz,if you know how to navigate rat dippity's web page you will see that there are pictures of all her bredding rats. On the planned breeding page if you click on the buck or the doe it has a picture and there pedigree going back 4-5 generations. she also may breed alot of litters but she has homes for all her babies. She also has worked with breeders that this site says are reputable. I would suggest you contact her personally with your concerns rather than state incorrect info on this forum.

While Lilspaz did miss the links at the bottom of the page, the facts remains she has females breeding back to back litters.  For example, one girl Hemmi had babies on 02/15, and was then put in with a male on 03/13 for a mating.  Females need a few months break between litters, and yet she was bred with a boy when her current babies were only 4 weeks old.  Just not what a responsible breeder who cares about their rats would do. 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 08:31:42 PM by Siana »

Offline lilspaz68

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2009, 09:23:05 PM »
LILspaz,if you know how to navigate rat dippity's web page you will see that there are pictures of all her bredding rats. On the planned breeding page if you click on the buck or the doe it has a picture and there pedigree going back 4-5 generations. she also may breed alot of litters but she has homes for all her babies. She also has worked with breeders that this site says are reputable. I would suggest you contact her personally with your concerns rather than state incorrect info on this forum.

I figured out the navigation after my first post and did add the fact in a later post, but there's NO incorrect info on this forum, as all I did was copy what she was stating on her own.  I didn't make ONE thing up :D

Offline Cathie

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2009, 11:50:18 PM »
I don't deny that she has had back to back litters. What is untrue is that there are no pedigrees and that she is breeding rats that she does not know where they came from. If you look at the pedigrees you will see that she knows the genetic history and her breeding stock came from other breeders. I will not argue about this anymore. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It is hard in Michigan to find available rats from a breeder. I wish when I recommend her rats, that people would stop bashing her as a breeder, without looking at the wonderful, friendly rats that she produces. Take a look at the testimonials page and you will see that people who buy rats from her are very happy with that decision.

Offline Moondust

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2009, 12:42:48 AM »
I don't deny that she has had back to back litters. What is untrue is that there are no pedigrees and that she is breeding rats that she does not know where they came from. If you look at the pedigrees you will see that she knows the genetic history and her breeding stock came from other breeders. I will not argue about this anymore. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It is hard in Michigan to find available rats from a breeder. I wish when I recommend her rats, that people would stop bashing her as a breeder, without looking at the wonderful, friendly rats that she produces. Take a look at the testimonials page and you will see that people who buy rats from her are very happy with that decision.

People don't pick on breeders to be mean.  Problem is, there are millions of rats out there that need homes.  Michigan even has a rescue that's chock full of rats and people willing to transport them.  Every breeder that exists takes away homes from rescues.  Now, it is true that breeding is necessary to improve the health and quality of the animal, however, it must be done VERY WELL to accomplish this goal. That's not something one should do lightly! Most of those rescues out there are quite friendly, especially those born in foster rescues and raised from birth.  If all one is doing is producing friendly rats, then they are adding to the already overpopulated population of pet rats without improving anything.  And having back to back litters demonstrates a lack of attention to the health of breeding animals--a classic sign of a breeding mill.  Plenty of people are happy with the puppies they buy from mall pet-stores too...doesn't make the mills any better. 

Friendliness and color are NOT the only traits breeder should look for, because there are more than enough rescue litters out there to meet those needs.

That said...about breeding for snakes etc...I have to admit while it's not the best situation, I would rather see people breed their own reptile food and humanely kill it as in the first breeder mentioned, then to get it from a petstore where they are raised in horrendous conditions. It's gotta come from somewhere, as unfortunate as it is, I'm honestly glad to see someone trying to make the process as humane as possible.  Of course she isn't using pedigreed rats for that...what rat breeder will give breeding-quality babies to someone openly using rats as snakefood?  That said, making sure you know your snake's food was raised humanely is responsible in my book.  In an ideal world, snakes could be vegetarian, but unfortunately that's not the case, and raising ones own is the only humane solution I know of.   (Not that someone like that would ever get a rat from me!)





Offline ratties4

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2009, 06:33:00 PM »
In regards to the breeder in MI that is being discussed, all you need to do is read deep into her website.  There is so much there, that one can get lost and get incredibly bored, but there are MANY red flags!  I know of many people who have had health problems with her rats.  Who knows what she is really breeding.

She started breeding rats by breeding wild rats.  Can we prove that any of her lines no longer have wild rat?  Also, she recently had a rat die of a cancer that she has never seen before (see the Memorials-Shimmer on website), but she is going ahead and breeding another rat from that line.  I am not a breeder, but after 12+ years of owning rats, that seems to be irresponsible breeding.  Her idea is to breed the cancer out.   

I am sorry, but in my opinion, she has WAY too many rats, WAY too many breedings going on at one time, and so many other things that would keep me from ever adopting from her.

She condones Rubbermaid containers as permanent housing, yet talks about how rats need to climb.  She contradicts herself with many things that she says.  Heck, she has or had a rat that lived high up off the ground on a wooden shelf.  She claims to be able to "speak their language".  The list goes on and on.  I would hate to be a first time rat owner, read her website (especially the Common Mistake article), and freak out about owning rats.  She seems to be trying to "force" her ideas on everyone else.  I play wrestle with my rats on a regular basis, and have for years with NO problems.  That is just one example.   

Like everyone says....do your research!  Websites may look cute, but read EVERYTHING!  You may learn so much more by reading everything!

I am not trying to bash her, though it may sound like I am, but I just wanted to point out some really odd things that people need to look out for!  Not everyone is as squeaky clean as they may claim to be.  I just cannot handle people like her.

Offline Marybelle

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Re: My rat-n00b friend found a breeder thanks to my advice...
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2009, 06:40:17 PM »
Gonna lock this.  The OP has gotten info on how to choose a reputable breeder, and we're moving dangerously close to violating the "dirty laundry" policy of the forum.