Author Topic: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation  (Read 16303 times)

Offline Phalaeo

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New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« on: September 25, 2009, 08:16:05 PM »


I saw this photo on a thread here on GM, and I was totally fascinated with the rat's appearance.  The thread didn't have too much information besides saying that the rat originated in Holland.  I did some research, and was able to find the person who took the photo of the above rat.  Martin Braak lives in the Netherlands, and is a world expert on Dwarf Hamsters and a breeder.  He was kind enough to answer my email, and I thought I would share it with those of you who expressed an interest in the origins of this colouration.

Martin's website
http://www.dwerghamster.nl/

Quote
The RED or Red Devils. For two years ago I saw them for the first time at
Rene Bastians alias Rebas place. He got strange red colour eyed rats from
one who say it is dominant. So he breed it back with his blue line, which
does not occoure red eye and first generation red eye rats are born. The
dominant mutation red eye we do not known.

The story is that these rats are from laboratorium where a student did not
kill some rats, but bring them to home and later give away. From these
rats this mutation is come from.

At this moment we do also not know how it is genetic working, what it is.
The first generations with agouti look that it is not dominant, no red
eyes were born. We now think it is a mutation which needs the d-gene. So
that it does something to the d-mutation.

When you want to get some more pictures, i love to send them, but
tomorrow. As i am know laying in bed with my laptop,lol. But i have link
for you:
http://www.kleineknaagdieren.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1869
Currently ratless, but looking for two males
Pittsburgh, PA

Offline HopLikePopcorn

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2009, 10:51:01 PM »
WANT.

That explanation is a little hard to understand, but from what I'm getting this is maybe something we could produce in the US? Breeders, what's your opinion?
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Offline DazzleMe

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2009, 11:12:45 PM »
My opinion is that it is indeed a beautiful new variety and I kinda can't wait to see one in person. :)
-Melina & Crew

Offline Pumpkinseed

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2009, 11:33:30 PM »
I wants :D
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Offline synelovator

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2009, 01:47:23 AM »
I think what the breeder is saying is that this mutation is an (apparently, to their knowledge) new one which cropped up from laboratory rats in the Netherlands and is currently isolated.  The breeder also says that while this red eyed gene appears to be dominant and thus can be bred into the rats, it must occur with this "d-gene" which doesn't appear in Agouti rats, apparently.

However, I am no genetics expert, I'm just interpreting this email of his.

They are very unique looking; I wonder what a very young one looks like?

Offline DazzleMe

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2009, 02:21:25 AM »
I believe the d-mutation stands for the Blue line.
-Melina & Crew

Offline Phalaeo

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2009, 02:34:24 AM »

They are very unique looking; I wonder what a very young one looks like?

Like this  ;D





Also Hooded.


Plus, blue (g/g, d/d) does show on Agouti- otherwise there would be no Blue Agoutis or Russian Blue Wheaten Burmese.  :thumbsup2:
Currently ratless, but looking for two males
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Offline Phalaeo

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2009, 02:38:39 AM »
He also has these weird "stipple" rats, and tricolours.



Currently ratless, but looking for two males
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Offline DazzleMe

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2009, 02:42:26 AM »
What does stipple mean?

 Those babies are gorgeous with the bright red contrasting against the dark.
-Melina & Crew

Offline rosielovesrats

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2009, 02:43:57 AM »
Damn, those stipple rats are gorgeous!  I need to get me one of those ASAP =)
Mommy of:

Offline Phalaeo

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2009, 02:47:23 AM »
 :hyper: :hyper: :hyper: :hyper: :hyper: :hyper: :hyper:

I just got an email from Martin.  He's forwarded my emails to the breeder, so hopefully I'll have an update tomorrow.  He's also sending more pictures!!!!  :party:

Can you tell I'm pumped?


On one of the Dutch forums they were calling them "stippeltjes"- I guess it means stippled, lol
Currently ratless, but looking for two males
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Offline DazzleMe

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2009, 02:59:11 AM »
Oh. My bad. I totally had not seen those pics the first time! LOL! The first rat with the white spots on the belly remind me a LOT of the "snowflake" rats we had/have in the US. Rare but hard to reproduce. I had a couple, and I know of another breeder that had several. That is the best one I have seen though.
-Melina & Crew

Offline DazzleMe

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2009, 03:00:18 AM »
I wonder if the 'tricolor' rat is a true roan rat such as what we have in mice?
-Melina & Crew

Offline Pumpkinseed

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2009, 03:49:05 AM »
OH EM GEE!!! I want the hoodie o.O
Mommy to: 7 Furbabies; Bug, Boo, Banana, Kazoo, Elliot, Simon and Duncan,
and one skin Baby; Little Miss Lily-Bug

Offline Nelly

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2009, 06:35:21 AM »
I didn't used to like red eyed rats. I specifically remember looking at tank of rats in the pet shop with a friend and saying "I don't really like the red eyed ones.....but actually that one's quite cute, isn't it?"  I knew that was it and I had been taken over utterly by rats!

Those are gorgeous, I hope we get them in the UK, and I hope they don't have any genetic problems linked with the genes, like Black-eye whites can sometimes do (or I think that's the case)
Nicky&her beloved furries xx
Cats Steffi&Mac
Rats Turk Noodles Shadow Newt Ripley Tia Halle Berry Tempest Kembali Murphy
At the Bridge :icon_cat: Boris Billie Bimbo Jennyfur Mo; ratties Perdy, Mitts, Mr Pob, Manny, Zemmi, Aimee, Floss Lucy Liu Fargo Riddick Megan Melody Monkey Imogen Brenna Danny

Offline SevenSins

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2009, 07:14:56 AM »
Genetics is one of my favorite subjects and this thread has totally got me bonkers.

Offline FarmhouseRats

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2009, 09:58:26 AM »
Phalaeo-  thank you SO much for sharing this fascinating information!!  Gorgeous rats!  Cant anyone say "IMPORT!"   :hyper:

Offline Schrute

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2009, 10:54:39 AM »
I'm not one that gets pumped about certain colors or "pretty rats", but... OMG. All of these pics are just fascinating to me! I definitely wouldn't mind having one or two (or more) added to my mischief!!

Offline Marybelle

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2009, 11:41:00 AM »
It is an amazing mutation!  I can see these rats crossing the "pond" at some point and coming to America!  :)

Offline mandycoot

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2009, 11:42:01 AM »
Wow, how cool! All those rats are so beautiful.

Offline synelovator

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2009, 11:45:34 AM »

Like this  ;D


Plus, blue (g/g, d/d) does show on Agouti- otherwise there would be no Blue Agoutis or Russian Blue Wheaten Burmese.  :thumbsup2:

SO CUTE!

So I wonder, maybe the agoutis he bred to didn't carry any blue (g/?, d/?) in them, thus the dominant red eyes on the d wouldn't have shown through.  (If it's dREB/d, then maybe you can't get red eyes if a rat is D/dREB only d/dREB.)  Or perhaps it has something to do with gene interactions.

Oh, genetics, I love thee!!

Those dappled/stippled rats are also beautiful.  I didn't know we had a variety like that in the US, cute!

Offline serenebean

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2009, 11:53:14 AM »
I am drooling all over that genetics thread! Never have I wished I could read Dutch more, omg. Definitely looking forward to more from this thread! :D
-Theresa


Offline Phalaeo

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2009, 08:05:16 PM »

So I wonder, maybe the agoutis he bred to didn't carry any blue (g/?, d/?) in them, thus the dominant red eyes on the d wouldn't have shown through.  (If it's dREB/d, then maybe you can't get red eyes if a rat is D/dREB only d/dREB.)  Or perhaps it has something to do with gene interactions.

(They are calling this variety RED, which is confusing.  RED (Red Eyed Devil) has nothing to do with the known red eyed dilute gene.  For reference below, REB=Red Eyed Black)

That's exactly the case.  He purposely bred the REB to an agouti with wild origins to (almost) ensure that it didn't have any hidden dilutes.

These are Google translations from the breeder's (Rene Baastians) original description in Dutch:
(I have cleaned it up a little, but only to promote fluidity)

Quote
I received this from a German animal dealer, they came out of a German lab albino. It appears to be semi dominant which means that if you cross two copies, you get 100% red eyes.
Quote
3 weeks ago a litter was born from two rats of mine: a "REB" female (blue gray) x one of my black males. Black man comes from Russian blue line and black = very old line.  The result is 3 x RED with white fur (looks like but is not albino). 1 x "REB" en 1 x black. There is no white in the father's line. It seems that the white color is dominant over bijde (?) parents and thus become (still) worn by mother but that would mean that the gray color blue is not dominant but the special red eyes or ... weird huh? I will continue to register any litter.
Another litter "REB" x "REB" (both gray blue) gives 100% "REB"

I'm still waiting for Rene to write back, so this is only preliminary- Here is the thread if you want to refer back to the original Dutch.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kleineknaagdieren.nl%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D1869
Currently ratless, but looking for two males
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Offline Domo

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2009, 08:29:22 PM »

So I wonder, maybe the agoutis he bred to didn't carry any blue (g/?, d/?) in them, thus the dominant red eyes on the d wouldn't have shown through.  (If it's dREB/d, then maybe you can't get red eyes if a rat is D/dREB only d/dREB.)  Or perhaps it has something to do with gene interactions.

(They are calling this variety RED, which is confusing.  RED (Red Eyed Devil) has nothing to do with the known red eyed dilute gene.  For reference below, REB=Red Eyed Black)

That's exactly the case.  He purposely bred the REB to an agouti with wild origins to (almost) ensure that it didn't have any hidden dilutes.

These are Google translations from the breeder's (Rene Baastians) original description in Dutch:
(I have cleaned it up a little, but only to promote fluidity)

Quote
I received this from a German animal dealer, they came out of a German lab albino. It appears to be semi dominant which means that if you cross two copies, you get 100% red eyes.
Quote
3 weeks ago a litter was born from two rats of mine: a "REB" female (blue gray) x one of my black males. Black man comes from Russian blue line and black = very old line.  The result is 3 x RED with white fur (looks like but is not albino). 1 x "REB" en 1 x black. There is no white in the father's line. It seems that the white color is dominant over bijde (?) parents and thus become (still) worn by mother but that would mean that the gray color blue is not dominant but the special red eyes or ... weird huh? I will continue to register any litter.
Another litter "REB" x "REB" (both gray blue) gives 100% "REB"

I'm still waiting for Rene to write back, so this is only preliminary- Here is the thread if you want to refer back to the original Dutch.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kleineknaagdieren.nl%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D1869

Calling it (RED) is going to cause some confusion. I wonder if when it becomes more known they might change or add something to it.
Im noticing in some of those pictures that a good amount of the rats have sharp curled inward ears.
It has nothing to do with RED , but it would be handsome to have a line of rat that truly looked like devils.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 08:35:24 PM by Bishop »

Offline tkwarren

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Re: New information on "Red Eyed Devil" rat mutation
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2009, 10:01:46 PM »
I didn't used to like red eyed rats. I specifically remember looking at tank of rats in the pet shop with a friend and saying "I don't really like the red eyed ones.....but actually that one's quite cute, isn't it?"  I knew that was it and I had been taken over utterly by rats!

Those are gorgeous, I hope we get them in the UK, and I hope they don't have any genetic problems linked with the genes, like Black-eye whites can sometimes do (or I think that's the case)

Lili has red eyes and they sure are pretty!!!