Author Topic: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat  (Read 2953 times)

Offline Hippidy

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blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« on: May 13, 2010, 02:46:00 PM »
As some of you know I've been posting about getting my rat Peanut's teeth extracted. I'm going to go ahead and do the surgery. The vet mentioned one of the risks being blood loss. I offered to bring in Oliver, my tubby male, in case a blood transfusion was needed. I asked her about blood types in rats and she said that there really isn't any information that she knows of on it. She asked another vet that she had there and she didn't know either. She said if it gets to the point where she needs a transfusion she would die without it any way.

In about 2-3 weeks I'm going to do the surgery. I'm bringing in Oliver as well so they can get some blood from him.

My question is have any of you done a transfusion from rat to rat? Do any of you know anything about if rats have different blood types?

I'll be sure to post about what happens if we do a transfusion so that there will be some info out there.

Offline Mistress

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2010, 03:31:07 PM »
Good luck with the operation!

There exist more than one blood type in Rattus norvegicus. It can cause blood clotting when blood of different blood groups are mixed. Fortunately some blood groups are much more common among rats than others. I hope your rats belong to the same blood group, it would make things easier if he has to have a transfusion. Still, have your vet considered using RingerLactate or another blood volume substitute?

This is a very old article about blood group in rats, but not the first.
http://www.pnas.org/content/33/5/102.full.pdf+html
BLOOD GROUPS OF THE RAT (RATTUS NORVEGICUS) AND
THEIR INHERITANCE
BY S. 0. BURHOE
1947

I think I've read somewhere that neonatal isoerythrolysis is possible too. That is when there is an incompability between the blood type of the mother rat and the blood type of the baby rat. I just cannot remember where I saw it...

Offline Siana

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2010, 04:16:19 PM »
You could always get some of Peanut's blood stored ahead of time so it's available should he need a transfusion. 

Offline mccauleywent73005

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2010, 04:20:52 PM »
is anyone else amazed they could do a transfusion on a rat? im in the medical proffesion and like to think of myself as a pretty good stick, but i could not imagine trying to start a IV on a ratty. the needle would have to be microscopic.

Offline Hippidy

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2010, 04:52:46 PM »
I talked to her about storing Peanut's blood but she's worried about being able to store it successfully. Plus we're doing the surgery soon so it wouldn't be the best thing to take some blood now. And another con to doing that is we would have to put her under because she wouldn't sit for that. Part of the reason I want to extract her teeth is because she's gone under so many times for trims I can see the effect it has on her. Oliver's twice her size at least so he's got some to share. I don't have the money to test their blood and do all that kind of stuff. I just payed off my credit card so I could do this surgery. The rats have been sucking me dry with the constant needed visits.

The point she made was by the time peanut was needing the transfusion she would die any way. So the blood clotting and the transfusion not working would be the same as her not getting it.

I'll look through the article maybe I'll send it to her as well.

Offline gramma2jaakk

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2010, 04:58:50 PM »
Wishing the best for Peanut!

Offline lilspaz68

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2010, 05:05:55 PM »
I know it can be a tricky surgery, but I have never heard of blood loss being the danger, more the time under anesthesia.  I know Kaia/Blackthorn's Toothy had to have it done over 2 surgeries.  When/if Isabella gets hers removed I am sure my vet will manage it in one surgery.

Offline Siana

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2010, 05:09:10 PM »
is anyone else amazed they could do a transfusion on a rat? im in the medical proffesion and like to think of myself as a pretty good stick, but i could not imagine trying to start a IV on a ratty. the needle would have to be microscopic.

I think it needs to be on a large artery, like the jugular. 

And yep, like Lilspaz, I've never heard of blood loss being a problem.  The biggest risks are time under anaesthetic and controlling it since it's likely to be injectable, and also being careful not to break the jaw when extracting. 

Offline Hippidy

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2010, 05:13:45 PM »
The blood loss was just one of the risks she mentioned. I wanted to have as many bases covered as I could. She's only extracting the one top left tooth. She's getting a second opinion on if she will need to remove the bottom one on that side as well from a retired vet who had done a lot of dental work. She said ideally there wont be any blood loss.

Thanks for all the input and kind words  :thumbsup2:

I don't know how long she's expected to be under for I'll have to ask.. I was more concerned about blood loss for some reason.

Offline lilspaz68

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2010, 05:23:29 PM »
It's always good to ask questions before something like this.  I know I will once its been confirmed that Isabella will be having ALL her incisors removed.

Offline mccauleywent73005

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2010, 05:25:51 PM »
a rats jugular still isnt that big, and thats a bad idea to do, if it infiltrates it would would be catastrophic to the rat

Offline Mistress

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2010, 05:58:51 PM »
In the olden days the way to see if there were likely to encounter transfusion problems from blood types, the doctors used a glass plate with blood from both receiver and donor, one drop of each, mixed together. It does not take long. Most vets have a microscope, and I even believe the changes can be seen with the naked eye, at least sometimes. This should work to rule out different blood types in the rats as well, I think. This could be done in advance so that you know if the blood can be used or not.

It is possible to give a rat blood transfusion, but it is going to be fiddly. Hopefully the blood loss won't be such a problem. Some iron rich food in advance would not go amiss...

Offline mccauleywent73005

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2010, 07:01:50 PM »
can rats take procrit or epogen? you could ask your vet about that as well.

Offline xxJasperxx

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2010, 07:53:50 PM »
I too am in the medical profession and find it amazing that a blood transfusion can be done on a rattie...Be sure to post whatever info you can get!

Offline Hippidy

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2010, 08:39:54 PM »
What are procrit and epogen and how would they help?

Could some one let me know some iron rich food? Is spinach ok for them? I couldn't remember and I'm growing it in my garden right now.

I'll mention mixing the blood before hand to make sure. I sent her an e-mail with the blood type study. I still have time to figure things out. So far my questions for my vet include:
1) How long is it estimated that she will be under for?
2) can we mix some blood from each before hand to make sure they are they same blood type?

Anything else?

Offline mccauleywent73005

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2010, 09:34:49 PM »
procrit and epogen are used to manage severe anemia in renal patients or cancer patients. its a synthetic hormone that helps produce RBCs, i have no clue if it could be used in rats tho.

Offline Mistress

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2010, 07:30:28 AM »
Spinach is rich in iron, as you suspected  :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinach
I think I've read somewhere that the oxalic acid content is quite high, though, so I'd also think in the direction of boiled or fried chicken liver which can usually be bought at larger supermarkets as frozen, raw stuff.

Offline Hippidy

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2010, 02:54:04 PM »
Found out today that Oliver and Peanut have the same blood type  :thumbsup2: surgery is scheduled for may 25th (one week from now). I'll drop her off at 7:30am. If you remember to please pray for my baby. I'll post an update after the surgery.

Offline lilspaz68

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2010, 03:13:58 PM »
Give them both a kiss for me!   :heart:

Offline Hippidy

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2010, 07:20:54 PM »
I drop Peanut off for surgery at 7:30am tomorrow. I'm so scared I really hope she makes it through. I'll be praying for her  :heart:

Offline neelia

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2010, 07:51:55 PM »
I'll keep them in my thoughts :)

Offline mccauleywent73005

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2010, 07:58:30 PM »
good luck!

Offline Meatball

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2010, 09:01:57 PM »
My rats and I all have our fingers and toes crossed for your little baby, let us know how it goes! (I am in vet tech school and got to draw blood from a rat jugular vein. It was a decent size compared to the rat.)

Offline lilspaz68

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2010, 07:53:13 AM »
Good luck little peanut!

Offline AlwaysAmy

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Re: blood types/ transfusions from rat to rat
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2010, 09:27:41 AM »
Sending good thoughts to Peanut this morning!    :balloon: