Author Topic: Lip fold dermatitis?  (Read 29991 times)

Offline eyohkay

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Lip fold dermatitis?
« on: January 24, 2013, 01:50:28 AM »
Over the past couple of months, Wolfgang has developed seriously bad breath.  When we went in for his UTI, I asked the vet about it and she gave his mouth a thorough check, but didn't see anything that would indicate infection/anything serious.  I finally broke down and gave him a haircut today, however, and think I finally found the source of the problem.  On each side of his mouth, he has a small, well camouflaged little indentation in his lip that creates a very tight fold.  I hooked my finger around his lip and stretched it out to get a better look and it was guhross.  Red, raw skin and little balls of slobber and lordy knows what else stuck in his fur.  I tried to pull the crud out of his fur and the fur just came right out with it.

It had a very distinct yeasty smell, so I Googled "yeast infection in dog lip folds" and came up with lip fold dermatitis.  Obviously, everything I read said to keep the area clean and dry.  I also found a holistic site that suggested rubbing apple cider vinegar onto the area.  He does have a history of yeast infections in his ears, but we got that under control using the Zim ear wash recipe, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be safe to use around his mouth.

Basically just wondering if anyone has any experience with this or suggestions on the best way to approach it?  He hates having his mouth messed with, so I'm trying to think of the easiest, quickest way to clean the area.  Would plain (possibly sensitive skin?) baby wipes be okay for cleaning the area or should I just stick with soap and warm water?  Thoughts on using the ACV (seems like a good idea to me)?

I've still got some trimming to do and I think I'm going to shave down his ears, but here's his before and after.  :P

Offline mutewolf

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2013, 08:16:34 AM »
What a difference the clip makes. It always amuses me to see before/afters with animals' haircuts.

The vinegar sounds really reasonable although he might balk at the smell/taste. Personally, I'd try that rather than the baby wipes.

Offline Ratluvr22

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2013, 10:59:23 AM »
Aw he's so cute with the long ears though lol you should just shave the inside of them on the ear leather and even up the bottom! And yea we have a few cockers that come in to be groomed that have the lip dermatitis. Exactly what it sounds like he has.

Offline eyohkay

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 11:07:49 PM »
Just wanted to update and say that the ACV seems to be helping some.  I think just having all of that hair off of him is helping, too.

Offline piratejennish

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2013, 04:36:11 AM »
Definitely. That area will stay wet on dogs with longer hair in that area and that can certainly start to smell funky after a while. Also based on the pictures I'm guessing he is either all or part cocker so ear problems come with the territory. ;) If the odor is actually his mouth though your vet should have some good dental care options - water additives, brushes and doggy toothpaste (can't use human stuff cause of the floride), dental treats. Even rawhides are good for the teeth if your dog is a "polite chewer".
Currently owned by: 1 ratty loving boyfriend {Kelly} 1 dog {Mokie} 5 cats {Missy, Diva, Celeste, Zaphod Beeblebrox and Squid} and one little ratty {Tulip}

Offline eyohkay

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2013, 01:03:39 PM »
Yes, he is an American Cocker Spaniel.  Poorly bred by a backyard breeder and rescued from a high kill rural shelter a day before his 8th birthday.  Best decision I ever made and I'm totally in love with the breed.

Although not as often as I should, I do brush his teeth with doggy toothpaste.  It does seem to help, but not so much with the lip-fold issue.  Raw hides aren't even allowed in the house... both he and his brothers chew politely for the first half and then try to swallow the second half whole.   ::)  I've cleaned up too many barfed up rawhide chunks and pulled too many huge pieces out of their throats to even consider it.  They do have other healthy chews, though, like antlers and Nylabones, although I'm not sure how much they help with their teeth.

Offline piratejennish

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2013, 02:05:39 PM »
See if your vet has something called Maxiguard Gel or something similar to it, it's a dental gel that you keep in the fridge and put a drop above each upper canine on the gum line and the saliva in the mouth washes it through. You can also put it on the lip fold area and it can help sometimes too! Careful with the harder things to chew on, depending on the dog and how hard they chew harder things can crack teeth, there are 'edible/digestible Nylabones and those tend to be a bit better, but real bones and things like cow hooves are a bit too hard for some of them and can cause more problems than they solve. 
Currently owned by: 1 ratty loving boyfriend {Kelly} 1 dog {Mokie} 5 cats {Missy, Diva, Celeste, Zaphod Beeblebrox and Squid} and one little ratty {Tulip}

Offline forkyfork

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2013, 02:47:18 PM »
We had a cocker and fungus was a daily battle. She eventually lost all her hearing, not sure if it was fungus related but we tried.

We kept her shaved way down all year including her ears. People would ask us what breed she was. lol We kept her in a coat in the winter even in the house.

Her bed and jacket was washed weekly in vinegar. She got clean food and water dishes daily. NO plastic, it harbors bacteria. You can add a small amount of vinegar to the water. Our dog didnt care what the water tasted like.  :P

Offline eyohkay

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2013, 10:52:07 PM »
Wow forky, we definitely don't have issues to that extent!  His ears had to be washed daily for awhile until we got control over the yeast infection, but we were able to slowly wean that down to once every week or two.  That ear wash recipe that I posted works wonders.  The lip issue really doesn't cause him any discomfort or anything that I can tell, it's just smelly!

I wonder how he'd react to ACV in his water.  He'll eat damn near anything, I can't imagine he would mind it much.   :yelcutelaugh:  We use one of those big jugs (like a gravity feeder but for water) so I'd have to make him up a separate bowl.

Offline Wheeljack

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2013, 11:02:16 PM »
Cockers and other spaniels are very prone to lip fold issues, I'm dealing with one in my eldest cocker right now, and keeping the fur in that area clipped short, clean and dry will definitely help. Dogs with very heavy jowls can even have a simple surgery to tack up the fold and prevent it from coming back in stubborn cases.  Many of the ear issues in cockers come from food allergies.  People have a tendency to chalk any ear or skin problem in these dogs up to 'well it's a cocker' without doing too much research into the cause.  All dogs with pendulous ear flaps do need to make sure the ear canals are kept clean and dry and have airflow--in cockers this is achieved by making sure your groomer shaves the upper two-thirds at least of the underside of the earflap, trims away all external hair from the canal as well as those 'flaps' I can see on your after picture on his cheeks under his eyes.  After taking care of grooming if your dog has yeast issues on the skin or ears an allergy trial is often recommended.

Your grooming job looks really cute though :)

Offline eyohkay

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2013, 11:48:22 PM »
Thanks Holly... he's already starting to get all shaggy again, but I was impressed with how good it turned out!  I did end up shaving his ears, too... can't remember the clip length I used but I did cut the underside of his ears quite a bit shorter than the rest of him and made sure to trim really well in that area.  I'd say it's about time to do it again.

I don't think it's an allergy issue.  We feed Taste of the Wild and rotate between the 5 flavors available at our TSC just to keep things interesting for them.  He doesn't do any better or worse on one specific formula and they're all GF, so I think that pretty much rules out both a protein and grain allergy, right?

What do you use to clean the area on your pup?  I hadn't realized that this was common in cockers... I had done a general search but hadn't found anything breed specific.  I just typed in "cocker spaniel lip fold" and found this link, and specifically this picture:



His isn't quite that obvious just by looking, but it is a deep fold in that exact spot.  Wonder what the costs would be to have something like that done.  Definitely something to talk to the vet about!

And just for fun, here's a cute picture from yesterday morning.  Such a dork.

Offline forkyfork

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2013, 11:49:35 PM »
Cockers and other spaniels are very prone to lip fold issues, I'm dealing with one in my eldest cocker right now, and keeping the fur in that area clipped short, clean and dry will definitely help. Dogs with very heavy jowls can even have a simple surgery to tack up the fold and prevent it from coming back in stubborn cases.  Many of the ear issues in cockers come from food allergies.  People have a tendency to chalk any ear or skin problem in these dogs up to 'well it's a cocker' without doing too much research into the cause.  All dogs with pendulous ear flaps do need to make sure the ear canals are kept clean and dry and have airflow--in cockers this is achieved by making sure your groomer shaves the upper two-thirds at least of the underside of the earflap, trims away all external hair from the canal as well as those 'flaps' I can see on your after picture on his cheeks under his eyes.  After taking care of grooming if your dog has yeast issues on the skin or ears an allergy trial is often recommended.

Your grooming job looks really cute though :)

Food definitely made a difference but never stopped it completely. She ate mostly Fromm foods and TOTW.

Our neighbor got a cocker puppy because she liked our dog so much. The puppy had stinky ears too. She wasnt too happy about it. I told her she should have asked me first before going out and getting a dog.  ::)




Offline Wheeljack

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2013, 12:32:06 AM »
Aww, both yours and forky's are adorable <3

I use chlorohexadine to clean the lip folds on the cocker (counting fosters I have 4 right now), who has the infection.  It's quite common in GSD's also and I got a recommendation from a GSD forum to try something for babies called Penaten Cream and it worked really well for when he had mild flare ups--I did have to order it online though. 

For the allergies, when you're doing an elimination diet you have to keep them on one food only for several months at a time and see if you see a change OR you can have the vet do an allergy test, so you'd pick on variety of TOTW and give him nothing else for roughly 12 weeks (this includes treats) and see if there is a difference.  Food isn't all they're allergic to but food allergies do seem to present as yeasty ears more often than other allergies.  Also if they've had several ear infections it can lead to scarring and calcification of the ear canals which leads to more infections (just like with rats and their frequent RI's leading to lung scarring).

Forky, yes there are some cockers with anatomical features that make ear infections very difficult if not impossible to control.  They can have very narrow ear canals or a kink of sorts in the canal and those you can't do much about but those are not the majority of cockers.  After fostering for cocker rescue for so many years I just get a little frustrated when people say 'if you have a cocker you'll have ear infections' (and I'm not directing that comment to anyone on this thread necessarily).  If you have a cocker you will be doing ear maintenance yes but just owning a cocker doesn't mean you'll be dealing with ear infections.  My boy with the lip fold issue is now 10 and I've had him since he was 18months, never had an ear issue.  My 10 month old puppy has never had one either.  My 6yr old had one when I started fostering him over a year ago but hasn't had one since I've gotten him on an ear cleaning and grooming regime.

Offline forkyfork

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2013, 12:56:09 AM »
Aww, both yours and forky's are adorable <3

I use chlorohexadine to clean the lip folds on the cocker (counting fosters I have 4 right now), who has the infection.  It's quite common in GSD's also and I got a recommendation from a GSD forum to try something for babies called Penaten Cream and it worked really well for when he had mild flare ups--I did have to order it online though. 

For the allergies, when you're doing an elimination diet you have to keep them on one food only for several months at a time and see if you see a change OR you can have the vet do an allergy test, so you'd pick on variety of TOTW and give him nothing else for roughly 12 weeks (this includes treats) and see if there is a difference.  Food isn't all they're allergic to but food allergies do seem to present as yeasty ears more often than other allergies.  Also if they've had several ear infections it can lead to scarring and calcification of the ear canals which leads to more infections (just like with rats and their frequent RI's leading to lung scarring).

Forky, yes there are some cockers with anatomical features that make ear infections very difficult if not impossible to control.  They can have very narrow ear canals or a kink of sorts in the canal and those you can't do much about but those are not the majority of cockers.  After fostering for cocker rescue for so many years I just get a little frustrated when people say 'if you have a cocker you'll have ear infections' (and I'm not directing that comment to anyone on this thread necessarily).  If you have a cocker you will be doing ear maintenance yes but just owning a cocker doesn't mean you'll be dealing with ear infections.  My boy with the lip fold issue is now 10 and I've had him since he was 18months, never had an ear issue.  My 10 month old puppy has never had one either.  My 6yr old had one when I started fostering him over a year ago but hasn't had one since I've gotten him on an ear cleaning and grooming regime.

We had 13 years of trying different foods. She passed a couple years ago. I dont remember which Fromm foods. When we moved to podunk NC I started using TOTW. I think it was a preservative in the meat. Feeding raw, canned or cooked was not an option due to resource guarding related to the abuse from her PO.

As far as my neighbor they really had no business having any dog.  ::)

Offline eyohkay

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2013, 02:03:32 AM »
Is chlorohexadine the same as Betadine?  I have a big bottle of Betadine that we have for his ear wash mixture.

His ears and lips do get a little itchy and yeasty smelling on occasion, but it really only seems to be when I go too long between cleanings (which I try not to let happen, but I'll admit, I'm forgetful!).  With it being so easily kept under control, I'm inclined to think that allergies most likely aren't the culprit, it's just a hygiene issue.  His skin was very itchy when we first brought him home but that was easily cured with salmon oil pills, and other than that, he's never had any signs of a food allergy.

Offline Wheeljack

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Re: Lip fold dermatitis?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2013, 12:31:52 PM »
Betadine is different :)

Offline jenireland

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Lip Fold Pyoderma
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2014, 07:13:55 AM »
Hi everyone... My golden cocker spaniel has been suffering with lipfold pyoderma for nearly one year. I've tried a lot of natural remedies but I just couldn't keep it at bay. I tried all of these methods for several months before changing to a new method. The main  symptoms were oozing wound, stinky lips, rubbing her lips off couches etc. After drinking water the moisture seemed to gather in the folds. If I didn't bathe it twice daily there would be yellowish puss. So I tried:



Cider apple vinegar and warm water wash using muslin cloth X2 daily..dried with soft tissue and followed with organic coconut oil.



Same as above but using Himalayan salt in warm water (instead of cider apple vinegar).



Same as above but used a few drops of MILTON sterilising fluid.



Same as above but using anti-bacterial soap.



Then I tried germolene instead of coconut oil.

Then I tried Sudocreme instead of Coconut oil.



Then I tried to keep the area dry so did no washing and just wiped with a sensitive pet wipe with a small amount of tea tree oil spray on wipe.



I brought her to the vet and he said it was just her breed so he gave her an injection (steroids?) and anti biotic tablets. This didn't clear it and it seemed even worse a few weeks later.



Then..recently I got some cream for MY nose after having blood vessels cauterised. When I read up about it it mentioned that it killed the Staph bacteria which I knew was linked to lipfold pyoderma. I tried it with my dog by wiping a small amount into the lip  fold using a Q-Tip  twice daily. Within one week it was totally cured. Her lip is dry and clean with no bad smell. The wound is now sealed over and pink like scarred skin. She seems much happier and more comfortable. I am not a vet or doctor and I know human medicines shouldn't really be used on dogs but I was soooooooo happy to find a cream that worked that I just thought I'd share it with other dog owners.


The cream is called Naseptin:

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/ear-nose-and-throat/medicines/naseptin-nasal-cream.html