Author Topic: Kittens with Loose Stool  (Read 5214 times)

Offline NullEntropy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Kittens with Loose Stool
« on: June 18, 2013, 01:01:42 PM »
So, I just recently (yesterday) noticed that both of my kittens (about 9 weeks old) have loose stool. They've been dewormed and had their first shots. They eat a mixture of different wet food plus Nature's Instinct Raw (frozen raw). The wet food they've been getting is Innova Evo, Tiki Cat (which they had been getting since I brought them home), Halo Spot's Stew, Nature's Instinct Canned, Authority Turkey Giblets, and Authority Chicken (no wheat gluten in these). There might be one wet food I'm forgetting (I'm at work). Any way, I think the diarrhea started yesterday or the day before. My boyfriend feeds them during the day when I'm at work, and so I don't know if maybe one of the foods is giving them diarrhea? Should I try switching to just Tiki Cat for now (it's pretty expensive) or should I try chicken or turkey baby food? What should I do? I get paid on Friday, and then they go to the vet on the 6th for their second round of shots. Any ideas? I've read that canned pumpkin (NOT pie filling) can be helpful. Should I add this to their food?

Thanks!

Offline mutewolf

  • Posts Too Much!
  • *****
  • Posts: 1174
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2013, 01:40:14 PM »
Innova is going through a recall right now (I'm not sure if it's for just dry food or both) so I'd look into that further.

Canned pumpkin is really awesome. I used a tablespoon and offered it to my ferrets and it helped within a few hours, it's always worth a shot.

Offline NullEntropy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2013, 01:49:12 PM »
Innova is going through a recall right now (I'm not sure if it's for just dry food or both) so I'd look into that further.

Canned pumpkin is really awesome. I used a tablespoon and offered it to my ferrets and it helped within a few hours, it's always worth a shot.

I tried googling the recall, but only found info from March/April which claims that only dry food is affected. Still, I think I may move away from it if there's been a recall!

Offline Marybelle

  • Magic Wizard of Everything
  • Global Moderator
  • Posts Too Much!
  • *****
  • Posts: 25655
  • Weird, and proud of it!
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2013, 06:03:00 PM »
Canned pumpkin is all fiber, so it can help firm up the stool.  It's certainly worth a shot.  If it doesn't help fairly quickly, though, you'll need to sort out what else might be going on.

Offline forkyfork

  • Posts Too Much!
  • *****
  • Posts: 9665
    • DANANI
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2013, 06:49:12 PM »
Pick whatever food they had before they had loose stools and stick with it for a while. The rambling around with different foods can really set off their digestive systems.

Also, there is only one baby food canned meat that is ok for cats and its beech nut in the tiny jar. You want to avoid salt, garlic and especially onion and that was the only food I could find that is ONLY chicken and water. Baby food is fine for a short while but its not nutritionally complete long term.

Offline nakedrats

  • Posts Too Much!
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2013, 09:42:20 PM »

Does your raw mix have a lot of organ meats?  A ton of liver can cause some loose poops.  I'd typically pair the liver with some bony chicken since bone can have the opposite effect. 

I feed my cats willy-nilly with a mix of all kinds of canned food.  Fish, venison, lamb, beef, chicken, turkey, etc.  Nice regular poops over here.  Changing foods may be an issue for cats accustomed to always eating the same kind of food.

Offline forkyfork

  • Posts Too Much!
  • *****
  • Posts: 9665
    • DANANI
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2013, 10:39:37 PM »

Does your raw mix have a lot of organ meats?  A ton of liver can cause some loose poops.  I'd typically pair the liver with some bony chicken since bone can have the opposite effect. 

I feed my cats willy-nilly with a mix of all kinds of canned food.  Fish, venison, lamb, beef, chicken, turkey, etc.  Nice regular poops over here.  Changing foods may be an issue for cats accustomed to always eating the same kind of food.

Yes but when you are trying to figure out an issue feeding willy nilly is counter productive to figuring out the issue. Some cats just cant tolerate some foods. Not all cats can tolerate the same foods their entire life. I have one cat that ate raw up until 6 years ago and now even a sliver of meat raw or cooked and he will vomit within 5 minutes. He eats canned just fine. 

Offline NullEntropy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2013, 11:57:33 PM »
Gosh, I wish I could do multiquote, but to answer everyone's questions:

Quote
Also, there is only one baby food canned meat that is ok for cats and its beech nut in the tiny jar. You want to avoid salt, garlic and especially onion and that was the only food I could find that is ONLY chicken and water. Baby food is fine for a short while but its not nutritionally complete long term.

Yeah, that's the only kind I get. My family always gave it to the family dogs when they were sick. I got the turkey and gravy, and beef and gravy flavors.

Quote
Does your raw mix have a lot of organ meats?  A ton of liver can cause some loose poops.

I don't think so, but I THINK that a couple of the canned foods may have a lot of liver. I'll look at the ingredients and try to feed one of the ones that have less. Here are the ingredients for the chicken medallions:

Chicken (including Ground Chicken Bone), Turkey, Turkey Liver, Turkey Heart, Apples, Carrots, Butternut Squash, Ground Flaxseed, Montmorillonite Clay, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Dried Kelp, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Salmon Oil, Mixed Tocopherols, Olive Oil, Rosemary Extract, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Persimmons, Inulin, Rosemary, Sage, Clove

Here are the ingredients for the beef medallions:

Beef, Beef Heart, Beef Liver, Ground Beef Bone, Beef Kidney, Apples, Carrots, Butternut Squash, Ground Flaxseed, Montmorillonite Clay, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Dried Kelp, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Salmon Oil, Mixed Tocopherols, Olive Oil, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Persimmons, Inulin, Rosemary, Sage, Clove.

And here's for the duck bites:

Duck (including Ground Duck Bone), Turkey Liver, Turkey Heart, Ground Lamb Bone, Dried Yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), Pumpkinseeds, Montmorillonite Clay, Apples, Broccoli, Butternut Squash, Salt, Cod Liver Oil, Dried Kelp, Carrots, Spinach, Taurine, Inulin, Blueberries, Parsley, Rosemary, Sage, Clove.

So... maybe there is a fair bit of organ meat in the raw food. Should I avoid that for now? I get paid on Friday, and can't afford to get more food until then. I have one can spot's stew turkey, one can spot's stew chicken and beef, one can authority turkey giblets, one can nature's instinct beef, and one tiny can of tiki cat chicken. Any suggestions?

Offline forkyfork

  • Posts Too Much!
  • *****
  • Posts: 9665
    • DANANI
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2013, 09:41:18 PM »
Sage and clove is toxic to cats, rosemary is less toxic but still toxic. http://www.ibdkitties.net/Toxicunsafe.html It is really frustrating trying to find cat foods that dont have rosemary, I have never seen any with sage and clove.  :eek:  They probably put clove in it to attract the cat to it. Rosemary is used a preservative.

Essential oils which contain phenols
are particularly toxic to cats and cause liver damage. These include oregano, thyme, eucalyptus, clove,
cinnamon, bay leaf, parsley and savory. Essential oils which contain ketones can cause neurological symptoms.
These include: cedar leaf*, sage*, hyssop*, cyprus*, lavender, eucalyptus, mint, caraway*, citronella, clove*,
ginger*, camphor, chamomile, thyme and rosemary (those marked * give particular cause for concern).

Offline NullEntropy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2013, 11:08:12 AM »
Sage and clove is toxic to cats, rosemary is less toxic but still toxic. http://www.ibdkitties.net/Toxicunsafe.html It is really frustrating trying to find cat foods that dont have rosemary, I have never seen any with sage and clove.  :eek:  They probably put clove in it to attract the cat to it. Rosemary is used a preservative.

Essential oils which contain phenols
are particularly toxic to cats and cause liver damage. These include oregano, thyme, eucalyptus, clove,
cinnamon, bay leaf, parsley and savory. Essential oils which contain ketones can cause neurological symptoms.
These include: cedar leaf*, sage*, hyssop*, cyprus*, lavender, eucalyptus, mint, caraway*, citronella, clove*,
ginger*, camphor, chamomile, thyme and rosemary (those marked * give particular cause for concern).



Why would Cat Nutritionists recommend this food specifically if it was toxic to cats? That doesn't seem to make sense to me... everything I've read from nutritionists and owners alike is that this is the best prepared raw available. My vet also said that it was a great diet.

Offline forkyfork

  • Posts Too Much!
  • *****
  • Posts: 9665
    • DANANI
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2013, 01:32:02 PM »
Do whatever you want, its your cat. Im just offering my advice from 40 years of cat ownership and several years working in vet offices. I would question why they feel the need to put it in there in the first place. Why is it there when its questionable as to the benefit. The reason? To make the food more appealing to the cat. If the cat wont eat it you wont buy it.

Did you do any research yourself about it? Its very simple you dont need to go by a blurb on some website. You can research phenol toxicity to cats and you can research the amount of phenol in cloves and sage.

Also I stopped feeding my cats spinach. It can cause bladder stones. I already have one cat with bladder issues, I dont need 7 more. There is a lot of sugar in that food I am curious as to the simple carbohydrate amount in it especially when people that support feeding raw saying cats are obligate carnivores and then feed them a lot of sugars. Again some of that is on the label to make the pet owner feel good not as much a benefit to the cat.

Offline NullEntropy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2013, 02:08:59 PM »
Yeah I did quite a bit of research, and pretty much everything I read recommended this food. I'll have to talk to my vet about whether or not it's a risk.

Offline forkyfork

  • Posts Too Much!
  • *****
  • Posts: 9665
    • DANANI
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2013, 02:41:03 PM »
Email them and ask why the ingredients are in there. Those ingredient lists are some of the least impressive I have seen. I really dont understand the clove sage and honey? Its a cat. People read a label, they think it looks like something that would be good for them so it must be good for their cat. Sugar is not good for cats.

I like the ingredient label on tiki cat but it is made in thailand. It does need some green type supplement though. Cats really like greens.

Vets are an interesting lot when it comes to food. I have actually had quite the argument with a couple vets about the crappy food they recommend in particular science diet. I even had a vet tech yell at me because I feed Pet Guard. I asked her what on the label was bad especially compared to the number one corn ingredient in the one they push. She refused to look. Ive gone through several vets when it comes to food.

The vet Im at doesnt push food but as is common in this area doesnt know anything about feeding raw. From what Ive learned they dont cover much nutrition in vet school unless a pet food company sponsers it.

Its up to the consumer to do their research. My vet gave me cranberry tablets for my cat. It had an ingredient in it that caused pancreatitis and had to be in the vet overnight. Stupid me, I didnt do my research as I would really like to trust my vet, sadly it affected my cats health.

Offline NullEntropy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 03:01:53 PM »
Tiki cat is in Thailand, but it's a human-grade factory, and the meat is sourced in the US and Canada. As far as greens, I've read a bunch of conflicting this. One is that they can't digest it, and another that they can.

Offline forkyfork

  • Posts Too Much!
  • *****
  • Posts: 9665
    • DANANI
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2013, 03:37:48 PM »
I did read that tiki does work in a human grade facility and their food manufacture quality is comparable to the US. People should know where things come from so they can make the decision for themselves. Ive worked in US pharm manufacture facility and it wasnt impressive, in fact you would probably cringe. You can have all the regulations in the world but it is up to the integrity of the employees to make sure things produced are a good quality.

I dont generally feed cats oat or wheat grass. I feed an organic spring lettuce mix usually by earthbound farms and pick out the spinach. They get a small amount at least once a week. I will admit i haven't researched every green in it for safety. I have tried but there isnt a lot of info on some stuff. Some mixes have mustard greens and I try to avoid those since mustard is toxic but somehow I dont think they are related. I thought earthbound farms also had dandelion greens but it isnt listed. Dandelion greens are good for their liver.

As far as being digestible. I do give them grasses and they obviously stay whole and sometimes depending on the cat come back up. The lettuce greens stay down and appear to get digested. The leaves are whole and this forces them to chew them up to get them down.


Offline forkyfork

  • Posts Too Much!
  • *****
  • Posts: 9665
    • DANANI
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2013, 04:25:15 PM »
You had also asked about your other cans of cat food. I like tiki cat, the ingredients list is straightforward. The fish choices if you have to feed it you should be selective, go by this list http://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/mercury/guide.asp  Prawns and filter feeders can be high in other contaminants from the soil. I dont know what the level of contamination is in fish around thailand. I would avoid tuna.

They are all kind of run together in my head. Spots stew looked ok. The authority and instinct foods I cant remember which one has ocean fish. Unspecified fish and generally any fish in cat food can mean high levels of mercury. I would only feed fish to my cats if it came from my own preparation.

The other ingredient of concern is montmorillonite clay used in two of the foods you feed. Unfortunately it is either sodium aluminosilicate or calcium or in the case of natures variety includes both. Salt, calcium and aluminum even at only 2% should probably be avoided. There are other foods out there without it. If I remember correctly though, the nature variety canned dog foods and canned cat foods are the same formula. You can ask them yourself. If thats the case the dog cans should be cheaper.

For now, I would pick a food they were able to eat with no issues previously and feed it exclusively for a few weeks until the digestive thing clears and then add another something one at a time until you get a good rotation going. That raw food ingredient list is eye candy and fillers.

You can provide better putting your own ingredients together and probably cheaper. Put the things together every week or every other week and freeze them in portions. If you need a good processor I have a ninja and been very happy with it. If you get it directly off their site it includes a salad shooter. For the price its unbeatable.

If you want to add to the meat variety you can get it here https://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=21 although I would make sure the odd stuff is safe for cats. I know pork shouldn't be fed to cats.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 04:27:02 PM by forkyfork »

Offline NullEntropy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2013, 05:28:47 PM »
In addition, the site you linked is SPECIFICALLY for cats with IBD, which my cats do not have. After more research, it seems like clove/sage/rosemary is fine for healthy cats.

Offline forkyfork

  • Posts Too Much!
  • *****
  • Posts: 9665
    • DANANI
Re: Kittens with Loose Stool
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2013, 05:51:45 PM »
Is phenol toxic to cats? yes    Do some research if you dont believe me.
Does sage and clove contains phenols? yes  More research.

The one on IBD is the first one I came to. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with IBD, it affects their liver. It is only on there for general info.

I have a cat with liver issues and it is not something you want to have to face. It is very expensive and his life expectancy is short because of it. He goes every 3 months for liver tests.